Josh Sprague: [00:00:00] You know, I don't, I don't wanna go out by lightning. Like, lightning's frightening. That's just a bad way to go. Um, you know, I, if I'm gonna die, I hope to get hit by a bus or something, or a mountain lion that's gonna get me when I'm on my bike or something. I might, I want to go, I want to go cool.
Riley: . today I have Josh Sprague, uh, owner of Orange Mud and Seven Clay, uh, two different businesses.
He's an ultra runner. He's a, he's just an endurance athlete. Triathlete, a kind of a man after my own heart out there getting stuff done. So, Josh, welcome to the show.
Josh Sprague: Thanks for having me on. Love talking [00:01:00] about fun adventure stories.
Riley: well, tell me who you are, man. Let's, uh, introduce yourself. What was life like as a kid growing up? Where are you from?
Josh Sprague: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. My name is, uh, Josh Sprague. I'm from Liberty Hill, Texas, down basically Austin. Um, grew up in Kansas and, you know, lived around the country over the years, uh, depending on which, you know, business, uh, project I was working on and whatnot. But, um, but yeah, we're tried and true Texas at this point.
We've only been here seven years, but it's, it's a hundred percent home. It's been the greatest place we've lived in. But, um, but yeah, I have a, you know, a few different companies. But yeah, orange Mud, the most relevant is. Um, a business focused on hydration packs for runners and cyclists, and we've had it for 14 years now.
And then, uh, seven Clay, our custom apparel business, it actually spun off the orange mud side, um, because we couldn't find people that did a good job to custom embroider our products for us. And outta spite I started that business simply to hurt some local businesses that sucked. And, uh, and now it's bigger than orange [00:02:00] mud.
So, so yeah. So we, we have a, we have a lot of fun between everything.
Riley: Oh, I love it, man. So talk about your athletic background so people understand who you are, where you come from, and then why some of these products came from to
Josh Sprague: Yeah. Yeah. I, I've always told people my, my biggest passion in life is, is cycling. I just love it with a passion. I mean, in mountain biking, gravel biking. Uh, I used to like road biking. I, I've kind of taken a break from that mostly 'cause I just don't wanna get killed. Uh, but, but gravel biking and mountain biking.
Yeah. It's too dangerous. It's crazy. Uh, anymore and it always has been, but it's, it's gotten worse, obviously. And, and Texas, everything's scarier because a lot of our roads are 65, 75, 80 miles an hour, speed limits, and everybody pushes that limit. And it's, it's between distracted driving and, and just fast.
It's, it's, it's scary, but, uh, but ultimately it comes down to, even aside from the safety aspect, it's. Dirt. I love getting outside and, and, and whether it's been [00:03:00] cycling or running, um, it was, it was my background really in, in running that I, I, I always said, I don't, oddly, I don't really like running, although I run all the time and I never really have understood why.
But I wanted to make running easier and that's why I started orange mud is to make a hydration pack to be able to carry fluid that wouldn't bounce. And, um, and cause a lot of extra heat in my body wouldn't cause chaffing. Um, and I wanted to be able to carry just the essentials. I didn't need a giant backpack, uh, for a lot of runs, right?
Most people don't. I mean, I don't care what sort of distance athlete you are. Most runs aren't longer than an hour and a half, and therefore you can run with a water bottle. But waist belts, most of them suck. Uh, handhelds I personally never liked and. Hence why I designed our first product called the Hydro Quiver.
It's just a single bottle, uh, 24 ounce water bottle and, uh, holds your phone cash for the beer garden after a race, uh, credit card ID and medical insurance in case you get in trouble. And, and that was the whole premise of what [00:04:00] started the business. And, and I, I wanted to be able to refill, um, and run my own nutrition strategy in a marathon or in Ironman.
And, and that's what it was built for. But then we found a lot of trail runners just fell in love with our products. And, and that was actually at an Ironman event. Everybody that was buying my packs, I kept asking, what's your main sport? And they're like, oh, I'm an ultra runner. I just do Ironman for training.
And I thought, oh, well that's, that's pretty good training. It's pretty significant training really. But, but, uh, but yeah, and that's where everything just kind of grew from there and it grew into, um, pockets in front so you can carry pickles and bacon and guacamole or, you know, Reese's Peanut buttercup or whatever it is you want in a long race.
Uh, and, and then it just kind of started wrapping into mountain biking and cycling, which is my passion. So, so yeah, that's kind of how it all came together and, and then expanded from there.
Riley: Well, that's something, you know, people not in the, in the running world, especially running. Don't understand how something that moves on you. You talked about it bouncing,
Josh Sprague: [00:05:00] Mm-hmm.
Riley: bouncing and anything that moves against your skin, man will wear a hole in you.
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: And I remember, you know, when I first started distance running the, the nipples on the t-shirt,
Josh Sprague: it's worst. Yeah.
Riley: even notice it until later, right?
You get in the shower and you're like, oh man.
Josh Sprague: yeah, yeah.
Riley: that saying that, that, you know, talking about the bouncing part of the, part of a pack,
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: that's, it's very, um, I remember I was on, on a trail one time and I was just out there mountain biking, but uh, this guy come running by me and there was a race going on.
It was an off road. It was an ultra and it was something like 30 miles long.
Josh Sprague: Mm-hmm.
Riley: short for an ultra, but still it still qualifies. But
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: running by, I, me, he's in a white t-shirt and just blood spots
Josh Sprague: Oh,
Riley: all the way down to his waist, right?
Josh Sprague: yeah.
Riley: I'm looking at that poor bugger.
And I'm like, he, he forgot your bandaids, dude.
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: it's
Josh Sprague: Seriously. There's nothing worse than that, man. I, I, it happened to me the first time in when I did the, uh, Phoenix Rock and Roll Marathon in, I think, I [00:06:00] think it was 2001 and whatever Nike shirt or whatever I wore at the time, it was like wearing sandpaper after a while. Man, you talk about pain, it's such a weird thing of all the things that I, ways I've been hurt in my life, you know, rubbing your nipples off is definitely up there with the top of them.
Riley: so weird. It's a weird deal, and it's like, uh, like I said, it happens so gradual.
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: until it's too late and it's, it's too late by the time you feel it.
Josh Sprague: Yep.
Riley: Uh,
Josh Sprague: I agree. No, that's terrible.
Riley: when you're, uh, define for the audience who aren't into the, uh, endurance sports, what defines an ultra run?
Josh Sprague: Anything above 26.2 miles, you know, the marathon is 26.2 miles and once you cross, uh, beyond that, you're running an ultra. And, and it is cool, you know, the first time I I ran an ultra was a 50 k, and, and I'll never forget looking at my GPS and, and saying, man, I just hit 26.3. I just ran my first ultra and I, you know, I only had five miles left.
And, and, and it was, it was [00:07:00] such a cool thing to do that. And then, you know, I ran up to a hundred miles, um, total since, or, you know, as a maximum distance sense. And, um, but yeah, ultra is, I, I think one of the greatest parts of trail and ultra running is that it takes all the pressures of a half marathon or marathon or any road distance for that matter, which you generally are, are going to be surrounded by thousands, if not tens of thousands of people where on a trail, it's just a different mindset.
Of course, there's still the really fast rabbits at the front of the race, but you're always gonna have somebody really slow in a trail and ultra that you'll, that you'll be faster than, or most people will be anyway. I guess there's always somebody that's been dead last and, uh, whatnot, but, but it's, it's something that, that everyone is out there just to have a good time.
It's definitely a, a shift in mentality in most trail and ultra races that. It's just about let's, let's enjoy this journey while we're, while we're running, as opposed to a marathon. There's, there's some of the same mentality, but there's a lot of, it's a death [00:08:00] march to the finish line. You know, for most people, especially after mile 18, I don't care who you are, most, anybody after mile 18 really hates life, and it's about digging deep to get there, and there's a great accomplishment not to knock any marathoners.
I've, I've done a lot of 'em and I've enjoyed 'em. However, I would take a 50 k over a marathon any day of the week as, as an easier event even, because you have the ability to, you know, if you're hating life, right? At some point you just walk for a little bit, and that's okay. Not that you can't in a marathon, but you constantly feel that pressure in a marathon.
Riley: Yeah.
Josh Sprague: yeah, I, I, I love, I love the ultra space. I just think it's fantastic, whether it's ultra running or, or even on the endurance cycling side, I don't know where you call it, ultra and cycling. I guess it's just anything far, and I guess it depends on what's far to you. If it's too far, then, well, that's an ultra, I guess, but,
Riley: Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting thing, man. 'cause you talk about that, that feeling of pressure. Right? And, and when you're running in these big groups, like in a halfs or, or full marathons, there's [00:09:00] always that of group of people you're with, right? you have to stop and walk and you watch them disappear,
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: feeling of, oh crap, I'm falling behind, is
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: That's strong.
Josh Sprague: Yep. It is. And, and yeah. And, and it is just that pressure you feel like you just have to go. But it, I, I think everybody is familiar, anybody that that's competed a, a good bid in, in running, you'll always hear run your own race. Right? But it's really hard to do that because you think suddenly at the start line when you're in, whoever is near you and you think, well, I can probably run that fast.
Like, if you haven't normally ran a seven and a half minute mile, you normally run a nine minute mile, you're not going to run a seven and a half minute mile for the marathon. Like
Riley: much.
Josh Sprague: it's just not gonna happen. But I know I've tried it and, and I've learned that that doesn't work. And, and I know a lot of people have tried it and they learned that that doesn't work.
Uh, but the problem is when you're running a amidst, you know, all these other [00:10:00] people, it's just so easy to get sucked in and feel like you have to, you know, compete when you're not, you're just competing against yourself and you gotta find out what that sweet spot is. But, but again, that's so easy to get screwed up in, in a, in a road race where trail, it's like, I'm running, I'm running my output.
You know, run your zones, run your RPE, however you wanna look at it. Um, you know, you're just running your own output. And, and I think it's easier to, to focus on that.
Riley: You know, that's an interesting thing 'cause I, I talked to a guy, I don't know if you've caught the, uh, episode of this podcast with a guy named Alex Martinez. And Alex was, uh, in a, in a triathlon. His coach gave him a heart rate monitor and said, you're staying below one 60
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: do not go over that.
Josh Sprague: Sure.
Riley: had those moments in there and he talks about it in the episode where he's like, man, I could pass this guy right now,
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: to go over my heart rate, so nope, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be disciplined.
I'm gonna stay there.
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: pass the guy until later. And then he found out the other guy [00:11:00] had gone over his heart rate and so he was able
Josh Sprague: And bunked.
Riley: in, you know, 'cause he stayed disciplined. Right. But again, it's hard. That's hard.
Josh Sprague: Yeah. I tell you what, in a, in a perfect example, um, I was doing unbound, gravel, dirty can, is what it was back then, uh, with a buddy of mine. And, and we took off. And, um, I didn't have a power meter at the time, and I kept, you know, I, I, I've done an incredible amount of heart rate training over the years with, with running and cycling, but in this case, I was just kind of going for it.
And we were, I don't know, we were just in that typical group, you know, there's a whole bunch of us around. Everybody's going quick. We knew we could go faster. It seemed like we were going too easy. But you also don't appreciate sometimes that your adrenaline is allowing you to ride or run faster than you're, you're normally capable of.
And in this case, like we're sitting here, BSing, like it's no big deal. So we in theory, should have been at level two based upon how we were communicating. But adrenaline is a funny thing. And, and so we were putting out an incredible amount of output and we're. 30 [00:12:00] miles in. And I, I remember telling Jack, I was like, dude, we're going too hard.
I'm like, we can't do this. There's no way. We're, we're averaging like 22 miles an hour. There's no way.
Riley: Oh
Josh Sprague: we were riding mountain bikes and granted we were in
Riley: fast on a
Josh Sprague: of a peloton, you know, but I was like, there's just no way. I don't normally ride this fast. There's no way. I don't know how, what's happening right now, but, but I know something isn't right.
Like we didn't have a tailwind for the whole time. And then next thing you know, we, the, the Peloton kind of started breaking apart and, and it ended up being my buddy Jack and this one other guy. And, and we ended up just saying, well, I guess we should, let's do it. And we started pushing, right? We got in our own little pace sign.
We started rotating, man, I, I finally told Jack about Mile 45, 4. It was shortly before the, the first, um, aid station. I was like, man, I gotta back it off. I know I, I am putting out too much power. I, I don't know what power I'm putting out, but I know it's too much. And, and I was like, I think I have done screwed up for the day.
And I ended up [00:13:00] bonking for about 60 or 70 miles. It was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do to get past in that event. I couldn't, it took me so much to regroup. It, it was just terrible. Well, after that, I got a power meter and, and just like the, you were talking about with Alex, it's something once you have a power meter or again a heart rate monitor for running, but a power meter for cycling.
It's fascinating how you can put science to better energy output. And, and I've ran it now. I mean, anytime I'm in a race where I'm using my power meter, I, I'm not exclusive. I don't, I don't make all decision based upon, uh, decisions based upon it. But I do use it exclusively as a mental check. And, and it's like my heart rate can be high and I don't care as much about that, but I care about what my power is because I know if I'm putting out more power than I know I am that, that I am scientifically capable of through repeated testing, I'm only going to enter in a bad zone at some point in the future.
And, and it, it really helps to, to lock you [00:14:00] into these bands that, that are where our given physiology is. So, so yeah, it's, it's, it's neat if, I think a lot of people could benefit from, you know, power meters of course, and cycling and then Yeah. Running. It's certainly, um, I wish there were better power meter tools right now where I guess the power meter tool essentially is a heart rate, but, you know, heart rate is, is wildly variant depending on a variety of things, as, as you can, as you know, all too well between electrolytes and altitude and everything.
But, but anyway, I know it's long-winded, but, but ultimately I, I, I'm a giant fan of power meters and, and heart rate tools as much as possible.
Riley: Well, Josh, you used the word bonk, right? Again, for for the audience's sake, describe what that is and what it feels like to an athlete when you're in the middle of a endurances event.
Josh Sprague: Yeah, It's death is what it is. So yeah, the first time it ever happened to me. Um, I was doing the tour of the White Mountains, a 52 mile mountain bike race in, in, out, by show Low Arizona. And, um, and I had a long day. This was when I was really early [00:15:00] in into endurance cycling and, and, um, I twisted nine links on my chain at like mile five and, and it was too many links to rip out.
And so I just dealt with it all day and, and despite all the altitude and suffering, everything was going brutal. And I ended up climbing this, this, um, mountain single track forever. I, I swear it went up for 7,000 miles. And, and, uh, and I thought I'd finally got to the summit and, and, and I had bunked and I was just dying, just trying to get up it.
But I knew I was maybe 40 or something miles in, and I thought, man, I surely there's gonna be downhill sooner or later. I've climbed all day. And, and I, I had just bonked and I, I couldn't hardly lift my head up. Uh, I felt sick and I mean, the energy went to zero and, and just walking was, was hard. And, and it wasn't a high heart rate.
It was just like, your body just wanted to go to sleep. I just wanted to lay down and, and I, as I, uh, I pulled over on the side of the trail, which I thought was the summit. Um, I, I'm sitting there and I just, I'm like sitting on the ground. I'm drinking a bottle of [00:16:00] Ensure. We used to carry this back in the day when we were venture racing and mountain bike racing, and I'm trying to put calories into my body, and this girl rides by, she's like, are, are you okay?
You don't look very well. And I was like, I'm, I'm not, yeah, I think I just experienced the first bonk. And and she's like, oh, yeah, well, you know, you'll, you'll get through it. And I say, yeah, I will. I'm gonna sit here a minute. I was like, Hey, but at least we're at the top. And she's like, I hate to break it to you, but it's like another mile or two.
And, and it did, and it broke my will. I, I mean, it broke my will. I crashed so many times that day in between the chain, skipping every fricking two feet of cycling and, and it was just like the freaking worst. And the whole rest of that race was just a, a slog. It was like a, just a death march. Uh, but yeah, I mean, it, the, the gist of it is the lights go out.
This is the best way I can describe it. And it literally would be hard to lift your head up or your, your, your feet will feel like your, you have 50 pound concrete blocks on 'em. Uh, and I, I haven't had it happen more than I [00:17:00] believe just three times, uh, now that I, that I, or, you know, in my, in my racing career.
But, um, it's something that I, I try to avoid at all costs with calories and electrolytes.
Riley: It's, it's an interesting thing 'cause uh, you know. You, you mentioned in, in, uh, in your bio you had, you had mentioned that, um, innovation through frustration. Right? And it's those kind of things that you start to realize. The calorie intake, the electrolyte intake, the, the, the just water intake,
Josh Sprague: Mm-hmm.
Riley: those things out, right?
Because too much at one time. Then you get sick and you're throwing
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: too little and then you bunk, right? And so there's like this balance of getting it there and, and know, we're gonna here in a little bit enter into kind of where you went with that and started some, started a company because of it.
But
Josh Sprague: Sure.
Riley: uh, yeah. It's, it's pretty cool. And if you, if you never have experienced bunking, holy crap, it's a, it's a weird thing. You, you mentioned lifting your head and that desire just to lay down and go to sleep,
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: those rocks look [00:18:00] really comfortable. It's a, it's a
Josh Sprague: Yeah,
Riley: Yeah.
Josh Sprague: is. And that's where it's, it's funny to me when people have told me I think I'm bonking and I'm like, there's no think, like you are a hundred percent. You may have never bonked in your life, but when you bonk, there is a hundred percent no doubt that you ab bunk. There's never a, I think there is, you may, you're, you may not be feeling well, but there's no thinking that it is a hundred percent, your brain has a hard time engaging.
It's, it's crazy.
Riley: Yeah. I had this experience, and you'll identify with this, but I was, I was out on a run one day and we were just finishing up training for a half marathon. It was about 80 degrees, 85 degrees out there that day. And, and I had my water bottle with me. But at a mile and a half into, there was an out and back, right? I was a mile and a half in and there was a drinking fountain. as I ran by that, I still had three quarters of my water bottle. And so I'm like, I, I'll skip it 'cause there's another, drinking fountain down at the turnaround, right? [00:19:00] Which would be about six miles in that day. Six and a half. I get to the turnaround, that water shut
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: reason. And I had finished my water bottle about mile three and a half or four.
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: I'm already two miles farther past my water bottle. And then I have to go another four and a half back to, to the original
Josh Sprague: Mm-hmm.
Riley: Well, somewhere around mile eight, I realized I wasn't sweating anymore.
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: this is weird.
Like I got an itch on my face and I was like, dry. And
Josh Sprague: Mm-hmm.
Riley: abnormal for me. so, yeah, about five minutes later, man, I bonked hard and it was, it was dehydration, heat exhaustion is what it ended up being. But it
Josh Sprague: Sure.
Riley: to recover from that. it was,
Josh Sprague: Oh, geez.
Riley: it was bonk plus the heat exhaustion.
Right?
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: it screwed me up.
Josh Sprague: Yep.
Riley: yeah, that, that feeling of, I can't run like I would run, but
Josh Sprague: I,
Riley: get 15 or 20 steps literally and just have to do the slow slogging walk. And it was like, [00:20:00] I just can't make it happen.
Josh Sprague: yep.
Riley: I don't
Josh Sprague: It's horrible.
Riley: athlete I am. I'm done here. So.
Josh Sprague: I, I hate it. Yeah. And then, yeah, of course running outta water is one of the worst things ever. Um, and I've had it happen, I don't know, way too many times, but I mean, I've drank straight from lakes when we, we, like we, we, we did one adventure race out by, um, down south of Lake Mead. And, um, and we, we, well, it ended up being Lake Mojave is what it was.
And, and, um, we didn't have water. It was over a hundred, well over a hundred that day, probably 110. And, um, my buddy Jack and I were mountain biking in the dirt and sand for, um, it, it must have been. It must have been a dozen hours. And we only had, I believe, a two liter on us that day. And we didn't, we didn't think that section would take so long, and we'd been out for probably six.
And, and it, you know, it, it got to a point where it's almost comical in a way. You're like, we're not gonna die [00:21:00] actually, are we? I mean, this is only like a 16 hour or 20 hour adventure race. I think it was supposed to be a 16 hour and ended up being like a 24 hour. But, um, but we realized like we screwed up.
Like we should have known it was really hot. Like what were we thinking? And um, I just remember hitting Lake Mojave and I thought about it for hours. I thought about how cool it was gonna be. We knew where it was. We knew where we had to get to. It just took a really long time to get there. And, and once we got to it, um, I, we each just dove underwater because we thought maybe that would be cleaner to drink underwater.
Like, I've never thought about drinking underwater. I didn't even know if you could drink underwater. But we did. We, because we figured on the top of the oil or the top level, we figured that's where all the oils from the boat would be. Maybe it'd be slightly better if we were under, but as soon as we got to Lake Man, we dove in and went like a foot deep, two foot deep and just drank a bunch of water and hoped for the best that, uh, we didn't get sick.
But, um, but man, there, you hit a point like that when you're, when you're out there, that [00:22:00] when you don't have water, it is the absolute fricking worst. I hate it.
Riley: Well, that's kind of, it becomes a life lesson, right? Because you are taking a risk there, right? You get Giardia or some bull crap
Josh Sprague: Yeah,
Riley: disease
Josh Sprague: yeah,
Riley: with you, but it keeps you alive. 'cause you're, you're, um, you kinda mentioned something in there where it's like you started to question, are we, are we actually gonna die?
Josh Sprague: yeah,
Riley: Could, could we actually,
Josh Sprague: yeah,
Riley: you actually can, but you, it's, it's weird how you sort of slowly enter that danger zone
Josh Sprague: yeah.
Riley: and then you kind of, it hits you like, oh crap,
Josh Sprague: Mm-hmm.
Riley: in a bad place here. In order to even get past this point, I gotta drink outta the lake and risk the
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: comes with that. but at least that'll get me back to civilization where I can deal with that.
Josh Sprague: Yeah. It fixes problem one. It may create problem two, but problem one was the first thing that you had to fix. Let's solve problem two later.
Riley: Yeah. Yeah. So life lesson, and we'll get into that. I wanna bring that back up if, uh, [00:23:00] as we go into business.
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: So, uh, so talk about this man and when, um, again, building this kind of base for what the life of an endurance athlete looks like, right? When you're preparing yourself to run a hundred mile race, what does training look like?
Josh Sprague: You know, it just depends. Um, I, I can say that I've ran really good training programs where I'm training four or five days a week, um, over the years anymore as a busy dad, busy, busy, um, uh, business guy. Uh, I just did a 24 hour race, um, a little over a month ago, and I trained maybe one day a week aside from doing pushups on a, you know, about 500 pushups a week minimum.
Um, I really didn't spend much time at all, and it was just, um, that typical time on feet. Obviously people talk about, you hear when you're, when you're doing a lot of running, um, or time in the saddle for cycling is, it is important. And, and I'm not saying you should take that approach, but, [00:24:00] uh, I just didn't have time this year.
But, but what I do have is I have hundreds of races of experience and, uh, I know if we go at a consistent pace and I put in the proper amount of calories in electrolytes into my body in a consistent hourly, you know, on an hourly basis, then I, I can do, you know, I can do a lot, I can go a long ways, so most people can, right.
Most people just, you don't know if you haven't done it. But, but yeah, I mean, in an ideal world, I think people should be running, you know, for an ultra, you know, probably at least four days a week. But as I've gotten older, I've realized that time off was more important than it was equally as important as the time on foot.
Um, I think I've spent way too much time over the years. Doing too much running when I was training for a running race. And, and I, like, I never run two days in a row. I mean, if it's short, if I'm going out for a three mile run or something, yeah, maybe I'll run, you know, a few days in a row, but, but I never run longer distances.
Two days in a row. I always will alternate with a [00:25:00] day of cycling or a day of rest.
Riley: you, Yeah.
Josh Sprague: I, and I, I've been doing that for a very long time just because I realize I'll, I'll just hurt myself. You know, certain people have the mechanics that they can get away with maybe daily running. I have friends that have been on run streaks for 700 days or probably longer.
I don't know. I've lost count with some of these guys. Um, and I find that fascinating. It's just, um, you know, I, I think some people are lucky to have the perfect biomechanics that can get away with that. Um, but I think many of us mere mortals maybe don't have those perfect biomechanics and you have to be really careful.
And I think the, the cross training has always, to me, has been important. And even, you know, training for ultras, I always have still been one that is still riding, mostly because I love to ride and I always am doing cycling races every year. But I also think it's a phenomenal way to get cardio and get a different dynamic balance to muscles that, you know, running is only getting one type of muscle building where cycling's only getting another.
And then, then of course we should do all our legs strength exercises and whatnot too that most of us never [00:26:00] do, but myself included. But, uh, uh, but I do think it's about balance more than, than anything. And, and I, I would say three to four days a week is, has always been kind of my focal point for the run side.
Riley: Well you said something there that was, it's kind of interesting, right? So most people could do it
Josh Sprague: Mm-hmm.
Riley: as long as they keep the nutrition part and we, we all have a pace at which we could, we could do that distance, right?
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: Some of it's gonna be really slow,
Josh Sprague: Yeah. Sure.
Riley: like the course of the next month, you're probably gonna walk a hundred miles just going to the store and back.
Right? Just doing the things that it,
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: you're doing it at such a slow pace. So let's, um, yeah. As long as we can keep the calories in and keep the hydration there, then we're in good shape. We can do that
Josh Sprague: Mm-hmm.
Riley: by getting in better shape by running four days a week. By training for this, you just get faster at the same process.
Right.
Josh Sprague: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, it's, I, I just, I wish more people would understand if you just go at a pace that you can breathe, [00:27:00] you know, make everything simple, like leave your heart rate monitor at home, just as long as you can have a conversation and, and while you're running, you can carry that pace for an incredible distance.
I mean, incredible distance. You know, it's, I feel, I always feel bad when I talk to people and they're like, I could never do what you do. I can't run more than five miles. I'm like, I guarantee you can, if you can have a conversation, you can run a marathon, a 50 k, 50 mile, you a hundred mile, whatever you want.
Um, you know, it's, are you gonna run it fast and efficiently if you're not training? Well, no, probably not, but most people can do. If you, if you have, if you're good at running, if you're a fit athlete, or even if you're just a, you know, a consistent athlete, I should say. Um, if you run at a pace that you can have a conversation and you put in the proper nutrients, you can do pretty much anything.
It really is simple. You know, it's, it's that old adage, uh, um, uh, you know, basically consistency is, is, is a success to speed, [00:28:00] which, you know, may not be fast, but it's gonna be better than going, you know, it's gonna be better than the alternative, which is not starting. Right. Which is what most people will, will simply decide that they can't do it, and they won't start I
Riley: Where would you say ego comes into it? Man? 'cause I, I know when I first started doing the distance running thing,
Josh Sprague: mm-hmm.
Riley: well, part of it was the arches of my feet weren't. Ready for it.
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: knees weren't ready for it. My hips weren't ready for it. The, the shins, right? You get the shin splints and those kind of things when you're first starting, but once you get up to a certain base level, those things kinda fix themselves.
Right? And, uh, with caveat. But yeah, those things mostly fix themselves. But after that, then it becomes a nutrition thing. But my question is, where does ego come into it? 'cause I remember this feeling of is a pace that I can do a conversation, but I'm not sure you could call it running,
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: almost embarrassed, right?
Almost like, it's a brisk walk. It's,
Josh Sprague: Yeah, no, [00:29:00] I, I mean, I, I think ego works for short burst, but that's about it, you know, ego, which I would really transfer into the adrenaline category. Um, it's only gonna work for that sprint. It's when you're running in front of the crowd at an aid station and you wanna look like you're just doing awesome and you can run a six minute mile for have whatever, a hundred miles.
That's when I think ego comes in. But, you know, I think when you're in, when you're in any endurance sport, ego really won't get you very far. You really need to run your own race. And, and if you do that, then you will finish. It's just, it's when you get, let your ego get ahead of you and you do stupid things, it can cause you to bonk or it can cause you to, um, you know, ride above your limits, which may break some of your mental strength too.
And,
Riley: Mm-hmm.
Josh Sprague: a lot of people that quit races simply because they mentally give up. And it's not that they couldn't finish it, they just mentally decided they couldn't finish it. And if they would just sit down for 30 minutes and let them, their bodies regroup, they could still finish, [00:30:00] but they won't, and they'll get defeated.
So, so that's where, yeah, I, I think ego is one of the things that you can use in training to get yourself excited and whatnot. But when it comes to race day, um, I think it's best just to focus on what you're good at and, and let that take you to the finish the entire way.
Riley: yeah, yeah. For me it was kind of discouraging though 'cause I wanted to be this, this runner, you
Josh Sprague: Mm-hmm.
Riley: then I would find that, man, if I wanna go far, I gotta go to pace. That's embarrassingly slow.
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: and so it almost, it would almost make me wanna quit
Josh Sprague: Mm-hmm.
Riley: because all because of ego, right? I would've been out there, got the activity in, got the, got the workout done.
Josh Sprague: Sure.
Riley: not suffering from that ego, you know, building up in there, make me, uh, I want to go at a certain pace, but I can't.
Josh Sprague: Yep.
Riley: So,
Josh Sprague: Yeah,
Riley: Interesting
Josh Sprague: humbling.
Riley: Um, so as a, as an athlete, you have just a, a fitness base you [00:31:00] like to keep? Is there a way you measure that?
Josh Sprague: I don't measure it, but, well, I guess I do by the frigging pants diameter. And my waist diameter is what I measure. It's like those jeans are getting a little tight. I better get my butt in gear. But, um, you know, it, I've hit a point where I don't enjoy racing as much as I used to. Now I enjoy just training and, and, and I still record everything.
You know, most things on Strava just 'cause it's addictive, you know, you feel like you have to, but, um, but I tell you what, over this past year I've had this, this, this, um, this change where, um, I started this pushup challenge that some friends of mine, they started this goal where they do pushups, you know, every day or, or a whole bunch a week.
And, and so I set a goal of doing 500 a week, uh, 40 weeks ago. I just finished 40 weeks, uh, straight of doing this. And, and I'll do between 500 and a thousand a week, somewhere in that range, usually 500 to 700 a week, and. Uh, and to me it's been one of the coolest baselines ever because that is my, [00:32:00] it's just my, my weekly routine, you know, and I do 'em usually in sets of 30 and, you know, I, like, I haven't done any yet today, but I, after our call, I'll probably bang out, you know, maybe 1, 2, 3 sets of them, and maybe the last one will be later today after a run or ride or something.
But, um, but I, I focus on that and it's done amazing things to balance my core, my back strength, uh, somehow I, I, I mean, like I said, I just did a 24 hour adventure race and I have not been training. So it, and I did, I was strong, like strong, strong. I, I could've, I could have ran significantly every discipline I could have done significantly faster than, than we did.
Um, but you know, it's, it's, you're only as fast as your weakest link on your team. And, and we, you know, we had a great time, but, but I was fascinated that my body held up so well given how very little I have trained, like I have not rode over, I don't know, maybe two or three hours this whole year. That would never be the case in years past when I was doing 24 hour adventure races or longer, it was like, man, we go out, [00:33:00] we'd train all the time and, and you know, a two hour ride was a normal Tuesday, let alone a 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 12, whatever hour ride.
But, um, but yeah, I, I'm, I'm fascinated at at how simplicity has changed things, you know, for me. And, and it gives me mental satisfaction to know that I'm using that as a baseline. And then I, I wanna get two other workouts in during the week. And that's it. And if I'm doing that and I'm eating healthy, um, it's, it's amazing how that's changed things.
It, it's, it's used to always be four to five days a week. I have to do four to five days a week. That's, that was always my goal. Um, and, and again, I'm doing at least five days a week with pushups, but, or maybe, maybe four. Um, but it, it just comes down to that, that's my minimum requirement of a baseline. And I, and I feel better than I have in a really long time.
And I'm rested and I'm running faster than I have, and I'm mountain biking faster than I have, and I'm not doing much. So, riddle me that I really don't [00:34:00] understand it, to be honest. I mean, I was one that's done all kinds of stupid stuff. I look at, like when I, I went mountain biking at Georgetown Lake the other day and I rode fast.
My fastest time that I've ever ridden there in seven years. And I only ride my, my bike like once a week, you know, this year on average. So, I don't know, maybe I just needed more rest over the years. It probably could have been faster.
Riley: man, that I think I've seen happen with athletes, right?
Josh Sprague: Mm-hmm.
Riley: Where once you know you can do a certain thing
Josh Sprague: Mm-hmm.
Riley: coming back to it later, it's like, you know, you can go a hundred miles. So,
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: you know, maybe you're not training as much as you used to, but you know, you can do it.
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: endurance races are different, right?
'cause you, again, back to nutrition, you, you've already got a, your, your body's built where it can do it now. 'cause you've already crossed that threshold. Now it's just all in here and it's all nutrition, right?
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: Yeah.
Josh Sprague: and, man, if you, if you wrap your head around it, it really is, is fascinating. I did the Unbound [00:35:00] Excel, was it two years ago? I think it was. Um, and that was a 360 mile gravel bike ride. You had 36 hours to do it. Um, I think I did it in 34 or 33. Um, and I was well on track ahead of that, um, until we hit a mud section twice.
That was really long. And I had to drag my bike for miles. Um, and then it took a while to clean it out. But, but that year I had some buddies of mine asking me like, how many miles you in for the year? I'm like, well, let's check. I look on Strava, and that was in June, and I was 500 miles in for the whole year, and I just went and knocked out 360 miles and it, it, and I don't say that to make it sound like I'm superhuman.
I make, I say that to make it sound like if I can do that, most people could do the exact same thing. You just need a ride to where you can talk, put food in, and you can do it. It really, it really is, is I'm constantly amazed. A again, that of how many stupid things I've done that, that just [00:36:00] wasn't, that, I'm not gonna say that was easy.
Like my butt hurt, like I freaking got out of some prison gang. You know? I mean, it was, you sit on a bicycle seat for two or for 34 hours straight. It is a grim feeling. You know, I've done longer distances on bikes. I've biked five 50 and seven 20 mile bike races. And my butt hurt less from that. But I could, I can tell you there's a difference when you just have to grind for 34 hours solid on a, on a, on a gravel bike seat.
I could, I knew exactly where the stitches of my butt shammy were that were sewn into my bibs because they were translated directly to my butt cheeks. They fricking hurt. So, yeah. So yeah, it's, it's, um, that was the only part that probably I could have been a little more broken in by actually riding more is maybe it wouldn't have hurt my, hurt my tush as much, but yeah,
Riley: Oh my gosh. Love
Josh Sprague: it's crazy.
Riley: just outta curiosity, for my sake, I've never ridden a gravel bike. Are they geared more like a road bike? Are they
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: that.
Josh Sprague: Yeah. Basically the same. [00:37:00] Yeah. I
Riley: Okay.
Josh Sprague: yeah, like my, my gravel bike for example, um, I do have a bit of a higher end. Uh, you, you can, you can gear 'em in different ways, of course, just like anything. But you generally have more of a road based cassette in the back. Um, and, and like mine, for example, my, on my mountain bike, I can go down to like two and a half, three miles an hour in granny gear and on my, on my gravel bike, my lowest end is about eight.
Uh, I wish I had a little bit more, and when I'm doing some of the, especially the big bike pack and stuff, um, and I need to change that out. But if I'm fit, that's fine. When I'm not fit, like when I did that 360 the other, a couple years ago, um, that's when it hurts when you hit a big hill and you're like, man, you keep shifting and you keep looking back.
You're like, I know I got another gear. Turns out you don't, you're already in the lowest, you're just outta shape and it sucks, but Yeah. But most of them, yes, they're geared, you know, geared on the higher end, just since you're likely going to be averaging 12 to 16 and, and you know, you're gonna have areas where you're gonna be pushing, you know, pedaling at 20, you [00:38:00] know, 20 to 25, 28 mile an hour, depending on what the circumstances are.
Riley: Yeah, no, I was curious about that because you, you had mentioned, you know, averaging 22 miles an hour
Josh Sprague: Mm-hmm.
Riley: for me, like my mountain bike doesn't have the gear for that. Like
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: I, don't know that I could get much over 16, 17 on my mountain bike and still be pedaling
Josh Sprague: Mm-hmm.
Riley: in, in my top gear. Right. That's just
Josh Sprague: Sure.
Riley: So Yeah, when you're, when you're talking about a gravel bike and averaging 22, I'm like, man, that sounds way more like road bike gears. And
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: bike, was all I had was my mountain bike and travel bike.
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: was so big that tri bike, I don't know what the, the lowest gears on that were, but it was stupid, like lowest gears, 13 miles an hour, you know?
And,
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: I'm trying to climb this that really wasn't that steep, but it was a decent, decent climb.
Josh Sprague: Mm-hmm.
Riley: I'm struggling and I'm noticing a bunch of other guys on road bikes climbing the hill
Josh Sprague: Mm-hmm.
Riley: bikes or time trial bikes. [00:39:00] Right. There's zigzag in the hill trying to get up it.
Josh Sprague: Yep.
Riley: crowd 'cause I was like, man, I can't just pedal up this hill and it's
Josh Sprague: Yeah. Yep. Yeah, gearing. Gearing and bikes is a, is a fickle thing. You know, I, I've done, uh, leadville hundred mountain bike twice, and one time I did it on a one by 11 and I was geared out and it drove me crazy. and
Riley: That's what my mountain
Josh Sprague: of the course it was fine, you know, but, but there's a, there's a paved road section in the middle of the race that is flat and, and fast.
And, and just to sit there and you're just sitting there spinning up fricking monkey pace, I was like, ah, this sucks. And the next year when I came back, I put on the, um, the, uh, the Schramm Eagle, uh, one by 12, and then I had more of an upper end, still the same bottom end. Um, and, and it was a significantly nicer experience.
But yeah, it sucks when you run outta gears. Um, and it's not often in cycling that you ever will run into that normally, if anything. Yeah. You, you run into, I wish I had a lower gear range. [00:40:00] It's not often you're like, well, I wish I had more on the upper end, but, but occasionally you do find that, and it really sucks.
You know, it's really unfortunate.
Riley: see it coming up a lot. You know, where you'd want that.
Josh Sprague: Yep,
Riley: um, okay, so talk about this, man. So you're, you're this endurance athlete and you're, prior to orange mud, you're dealing with, you know, just marketed fanny packs or hydration packs of different types.
What were the things that you started to see that were, were bothering you?
[00:41:00]
Josh Sprague: Sure. Well, so waste packs, um, I've never liked waste packs. And, and the reason why is to get them, it's a hard category to make good anyway. And, and so with the waste packs of the past, it was always hard bottle based. And the problem with those bottles is that your hips basically go in this like figure eight motion.
And, and so when you put two water bottles back there, they, you're, you're just set to fail that, that category, unless there's some magic I have yet to discover and I've been working on it. I've got one I've been building here and I, it's cool, but it still sucks with a water bottle. Um, it, it's something [00:42:00] that, uh, I, it caused me to ratchet.
It's so tight. It would often, often cause GI distress and in longer, you know, racing and it was just uncomfortable. And so that's not good. And, and that's what a lot of people, uh, I, I know a lot of people struggle with, that you end up getting gi distress when you're using waist belts 'cause you're applying all this pressure around your waist.
And, and, um, and then. Uh, and then again, it bounces and moves all over. Um, and handhelds, you know, most of 'em, they're always loosening up on your hands. And then, and then it's a, a counterbalance, right? But, but usually it's just the counter really, because you only have one hand running with a waist, uh, with a handheld, and usually your other hand is free.
To me, that was always weird. Um, and then, yeah, you tie that into, you know, backpacks and a lot of 'em were, they're, they would run too loose, which causes chaffing or they, they were too, too hot or their, you know, poor fabrics or pockets not in the right locations. And, and really that combination of those three categories is what, you know, caused me to go off and start my first [00:43:00] product.
But yet, subsequently, I have launched a waist belt. That's awesome. It used as a soft flask. It's under always under compression. So you don't have that, that issue of, of the figure eight, uh, movement causing, um, issues like I mentioned. But, uh, even handhelds, you know, I've since launched a handheld. It took me, it took me, you know, 13 years to launch my waist belt.
'cause I, I continually struggled trying to make something that would work. But, um, in my, even my handheld, it took years to get that figured out. But it came a re as a result of customers asking, even though I still hate handhelds. Um, I, I didn't matter because it's not my, it's not my, my choice, right? It's customers ask for it.
And I say, all right, fine, I'll make one. Um, but my waist belt, I gotta tell you, I love my waist belt now, which is ironic, you know, that I, I launched it last year, 13 years later after. Starting the business, literally, because I hate waist belts that now I have one. Uh, but, uh, I, I promise you that that thing's freaking, I love it.
I mean, I, I ran with it yesterday. I pick it more than my hydration packs anymore, but, [00:44:00] um, uh, if it's short, uh, distance, so, so, yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, that, that's the really, the, the gist of it though is, is that category of waste packs historically just had tons of problems to be effective for an endurance athlete.
Riley: Yeah. Well, you mentioned GI distress, man, that's something that, you know, until you've done prolonged periods of exercise,
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: even understand
Josh Sprague: I,
Riley: how that can ruin your day. Right.
Josh Sprague: yeah.
Riley: I've experienced, um, oh, on my mountain bike, I was wearing some cargo shorts for a while
Josh Sprague: Mm-hmm.
Riley: even thinking about it, I just used my belt.
Right. And I, I was on a ride one day and I kind of realized that my, my thigh on my left side was, was numb clear to my knee.
Josh Sprague: Hmm.
Riley: I didn't realize I was pinching off circulation up there.
Josh Sprague: Yeah,
Riley: it was just enough where, yeah, it, it took a while before that feeling came back and like, like hours later
Josh Sprague: yeah,
Riley: after I finished, I was like, man, [00:45:00] I screwed up doing that.
I can't be wearing that hard belt for, you know, that race. And
Josh Sprague: Uhhuh.
Riley: talking about ratcheting that pack down to where it's tight enough, but now all of a sudden it causes other problems. Right.
Josh Sprague: Yep. No, that's brutal. Brutal.
Riley: describe to me what this pack is like, man. Do you have one handy you can put on
Josh Sprague: I, uh, where do I have one? Do I have one in here? No, here's one of them. Um, so yeah, so like, this is, this is our, this is actually our RFP. This isn't my bottle based pack that I started with, but this is a, um, a 1.5 liter bladder that goes in the back. And then we have pockets that go up front. One of the flagships that really separates us from everybody else is we have shoulder pockets up on the top, and I designed these for gels, chapstick, electrolytes, sunblock, um, kind of all your essentials.
But, um, but yeah, everything, you know, orange mode related, we've all, we're using, you know, lightweight mesh, but yet we always have a rigid component. So like our, our back panel for [00:46:00] example, it doesn't stretch. Uh, the rest of the pack has some built in stretch, but that's an important piece with which stabilizes fluid.
Um, and that's, and that goes across, you know, all of our products. It's always about stabilizing fluid is, is number one. It's the, all the other fancy stuff you can put into a backpack is, it all goes out the window if you can't stabilize fluid. That's the whole number one design objective in a backpack.
And, uh, if you stabilize that, you, you don't have much else to worry about. So everything we do, we, we, um, um, we anchor from the front of your shoulders and wrap to the back. Anything up front, there are just subtle adjustments so you don't have to have lung compression. But, um, yeah, across our whole portfolio that's, that's the focal point is, um, you know, basically let your, let your shoulders and back, do the work, uh, and then let your chest breathe and everything else should be make the day fun.
Riley: Well, that's a, you know, that's the problem with like a, with a lot of chest packs. Right? I, I noticed that on my mountain bike [00:47:00] when I, if I have too much crap in there, rain gear or whatever I'm packing, depending on length of the time I'm riding, and all of a sudden that chest crap strap becomes necessary.
But if it's too tight, then all of a sudden
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: expand. I can't breathe. Right. And so it's, yeah. Sucks in another way then, right?
Josh Sprague: Exactly.
Riley: Yeah. So when you talk about stabilizing fluid, are you guys using, um, any, any, uh, baffles inside the, the actual bladder or how, how are you going about that part?
Josh Sprague: Yeah. So we, yes, I did test that. And um, like hydro pack for example, has a, uh, it's called a shapeshift, uh, bladder. And, and I really thought that was gonna be cool. And then there was another brand actually back when I first started with my bladder based packs that I was looking at that, that was pretty neat.
And how they separated, um, fluids, I thought, well, I can control the reservoirs. And I even had one pack I designed that was going to use two different, completely separate reservoirs. And I thought, this is gonna be sweet 'cause you want run water in one and a hydration. Mixing the other, but [00:48:00] ultimately, no.
It, I just found that over complicated things and it just wasn't working. And I'm a, I'm a big fan of, of simplicity. And, and, and so with all of my packs, like with all my bladder packs and all my flask packs, um, uh, the way it works is I have my, my mesh that I use is, um, it's stretchy, but it has a very, it's, it's a, it's a firm stretchy material, if you will.
And, and so as a result, when the bladder's full, it's under compression and it's gonna be under compression all the way until it's not full and until it's empty. And, and that has been really at the flagship of all of our designs. And it's always tricky,
Riley: in there where that fluid's moving around. It just
Josh Sprague: right?
Riley: and it's
Josh Sprague: Yeah. And so now that is one important piece is that, um, if you filled, say a bladder half full, um, then, and, and it, and you left a big air bubble in there, then that could still be an issue.
Probably in many ways still would barely be noticed. But it's always important to burp, um, a bladder or a flask, you
know
Or[00:49:00]
at least if you fill it a hundred percent fold, you're, you know, it's not an issue. But, uh, but yeah, there's, once you, um, fill a bladder and then turn the bladder upside down, get, let all the air come out of the hose.
Then put it in the pack. Uh, and that goes for anybody's pack. You should always do that. But if you do that and then it allows the pack designed to do its work while you're running or riding, um, you won't, you won't have any movement. It'll be, it'll be rock solid. Yeah. But yeah, that whole baffling and whatnot, it, it's, it sounds great, but it's, it's marketing more than anything.
I
Riley: Yeah
Josh Sprague: some PAC designs that would work. I, I was really surprised that it, it brought zero benefit in my designs. But again, I, it's because our designs have that in mind. And, and I, but I think ultimately, imagine if you're going for a run and you have a baffled bladder versus a non baffled bladder.
If you're, if it's allowed to move in the back of the pack, it's still four or five pounds of water. It's flopping around. So no matter [00:50:00] what a baffle or not, it's still moving around. You're not gonna fix that. It needs to be under compression.
Riley: Yeah That's great Um yeah it's kind of a self fixing problem if you will if
Josh Sprague: Yeah. Yeah. And it saved, it saved a little bit too. The, the shapeshift cost a little bit more. And like I said, cool tech. I mean, if, you know, I'm sure some people have reason, but not for me.
Riley: yeah so I've used packs before some that I can't they don't have that kind of plasticy taste to the water Uh
Josh Sprague: Right.
Riley: Others do man What's the do you guys do for that to to uh
Josh Sprague: Yeah. Well, so the first step
Riley: heats up and you got that oh
Josh Sprague: it is. Yeah. Well, so there's, there's a couple things. So, you know, one hydro pack is our vendor partner, and that's all we've used since we started on the, on the bladders for the bottles. We build them direct overseas, but, uh, but with the bladders, uh, it's a bpa a free material, [00:51:00] and, and I, I mean, it's, it's, it's great normally when you're tasting that plastic funk.
Um, now, well, I'll say it in two ways. So there's a lot of, you know, junk that comes out on the market and I, and with bladders, I would never use some cheap knockoff bladder. Um, I would only use a, a brand name if it were me, uh, just so that you ensure you're not putting any crazy chemicals into your body.
Now, some of it, even when you first get a bladder, you still want to um, you know, wash it in in hot soapy water and make sure you get any of the, the chemicals off that could be used in the molding process regardless of who it is. Um, and then the other side of it, um, uh, BPA free or not just to, to be, you know, to me ultimate safety, um, is to fill it up before you go for a run and, and not drink, you know, water that's been sitting in a bottle for or in the bladder for a couple days.
And I don't, I personally don't even, not that I worry about this or not that I [00:52:00] taste it, but even so, I am nerdy that I don't mix what I'm going to drink until I'm getting ready to go to a race. Like I won't, if I'm driving two hours to race, I'll still mix it there, I'll take it in, steal bottles and I'll pour it in.
And to me, there, it's about keeping my, my calories from breaking down. 'cause I, I use a calorie with a protein in it and, and, um, uh, and I, the protein is often what will break down in a hydration mix, so you can't mix it ahead of time for too long. Uh, 'cause I've had 'em turn sour on me in races and that sucks and it's a whole nother problem, a whole nother flavor.
But, uh, uh, but yeah, bottom line though, used name brand, uh, bladders, you know, with, with Hydro Pack, we've had just tremendous success. And, and again, I don't taste a plastic taste there. Um, but, but the other is just make sure you wash the crap out of it and flush it really well, uh, before and, and of course after the race.
Riley: Yeah Do you have any tricks for that If you um cause you mentioned mixing uh mixing electrolyte or your your nutrition and with it [00:53:00] I generally won't do that with my packs I'll mix it in a water bottle that I put in my bike cage or that I carry with me but
Josh Sprague: Sure.
Riley: things in my cause it's hard to clean Right Do you have tricks for
Josh Sprague: Yeah. Yeah, I do. And so, um, I always, without with no exception, if I'm taking a bladder with me, there's a calorie mix in there. And, um, and what I do, and I try my best to always do this as soon as I get back, but I, there's times where I'm like, you know, you get back from a race or a long ride, you're like, I'll wash that later.
And it may even be tomorrow, or sometimes it may be, you know, a week or two later. Sometimes, you know, you forget. But, uh, especially if you put it in your garage and then you come back a month later and it's a science experiment and it's all gotta a whole new forest growing inside of your hydration bladder.
Uh, which has happened to me before. But, uh, but yeah, so there's, there's a couple tricks. So the, the one I hardly even use soap in in mine, uh, when I get back, if I got back from a ride right now or run right now, what I do is I, I, uh, I open the bladder. And I fill, you know, half full of hot water and I shake [00:54:00] it really, really, really well.
And I pour that out and then I'll do it again. And then while I have it open, I hold it up like an IV bag and I open the bite valve and I just sit there and I make sure I get all the fluids out. And again, it probably wouldn't hurt to put a little bit of soap on your hands, but just a little bit. I'm talking like a dab on your hand and, and your, and your fingers and put it inside the bladder and, and shake it.
And, uh, just, you just wanna make sure you wash all that out. 'cause that soap can, again, custom GI issues if you end up getting too much soap in there. Um, but then once that bladder is clean, you don't see any soap residue in the inside, um, you can do one of two things. Uh, because here's where the second problem happens, um, is you'll end up having moisture in that bag.
And, and what's gonna happen is it's going to stay in the tube and the tube is gonna get funky if you just leave it in your, in your cabinets. So some people freeze 'em. I don't, what I do is I close it back up and then, uh, I blow into the bite valve and, and I air up the bag nice and tight, and then I hold it up again like an IV and I with, and I let all [00:55:00] that air pressure push the water towards the bite valve and I just, I just pop the bite valve a few times.
And what that does is that it gets all that extra water out. And then the final tip is I just blow back into it and I store it like that, full of air. And, and it's, it's weird. I, I, I am kind of fascinated by it, but what will happen is that it will actually dry out. Completely. It's that air pressure pushes that moisture out.
The, the material it, I mean it's of course waterproof, but it's still porous and it will allow that moisture to leave as long as there's air pressure in there and, and the, you'll never have a nasty bladder like that. I do wash off the white valve, you know, afterwards, uh, just, just since I know I have my spit on her mouth on it.
But, um, but I, I've been doing that and I've been using the same bladders for man a long time. I mean, I, I have some that I've had for 20 years and I hear, you know, I see p some cus customers buy bladders all the time from us. And, um, [00:56:00] and I think sometimes people, um, just don't take care of 'em. Right. And that's part of it.
And then sometimes, um, if you have a, a leaky, um, bite valve, it, it actually, it my 24 hour race the other day, mine was leaking right at the start. And it, it was a new one that I just happened to have. 'cause I, I went to a race and I forgot some. Um, but this is my other tip is all these bite valves, it doesn't matter the brand, you can take 'em apart and, and what usually will happen is a little speck of dirt will get in that TPU and, and will cause it to leak.
So I, I took mine apart and just washed it off with some water and put it back together and it was fine. Um, but you just gotta take 'em apart sometimes. And you'd be surprised at what you'll find in there. It could be a rock, could be, could be, you know, mold. It just depends, like I said, depends on how you treat 'em.
But, um. But yeah, the, the whole blowing into the bladder trick, it's works phenomenally well. And I al I always store 'em like that until they're bone dry and then yeah, I may let the air out.
Riley: that's a that's an interesting way [00:57:00] to do it I haven't seen that man I like the freezing the freezing method
Josh Sprague: Mm-hmm.
Riley: but yeah I've I've left mine in my backpack and I forgot about it one fall when I put my bike away and I
Josh Sprague: Yeah,
Riley: snows here where we're at Right So riding I I don't do much winter riding on my mountain bike and
Josh Sprague: yeah,
Riley: there in the next spring and cracked my backpack open realized I had left it full
Josh Sprague: yeah. Yep.
Riley: Yeah It was a it was a science experiment you
Josh Sprague: nasty. Nasty.
Riley: though it was just water it was still mold all through the tube and I just threw the whole thing away and
Josh Sprague: Yep.
Riley: And
Josh Sprague: Yeah. But like baking soda and bleach, you can get 'em even because I've had 'em happen like that where, you know, you just forget and, and yeah, next thing you know, you're like, oh man, this sucks to throw this away. And, but you fill it full of, you know, you take a tablespoon or two of baking soda and fill that thing halfway full of water and shake it up really well.
And, and, um, and again, open that bite valve so you get all that baking soda water down in the tube and let it set for four or five hours and then, [00:58:00] um, and flush it. And maybe you'll have to do it twice or add a little, you know, quarter, you know, teaspoon of bleach or something to it. Um, you can get 'em back new again.
It really isn't too bad. And they make tubes, you know, or like holes, like pipe cleaners you can use. And I've used those on some that I've gotten really funky, but. But I'm kind of a tight wa where I, I mean, even though I've got a billion hydration platters in inventory, I, I just, I don't like to waste things and, and so I, I always try to clean mine up and hence why I have a whole smorgasborg of old ones.
Riley: Well I've used uh I'll stick a paper towel in the tube right And then
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: it through with an air compressor and it strips it as it goes And that that works pretty good But
Josh Sprague: Yeah, that's a good idea. I've never tried that, but that would work,
Riley: certain level of mold that I'm just done with the tube I'm just
Josh Sprague: right?
Riley: we're starting over New
Josh Sprague: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's true.
Riley: Um have you ever had a product that you wanted to produce but the the supply chain the market of products you could choose [00:59:00] from didn't allow that
Josh Sprague: No, no. I mean, as a guy that spent his whole entire career between my businesses now and the businesses prior, uh, building things, um, there's nothing that, that, um, that I, I haven't been able that, that there's nothing that a supply chain would stop me from. There's things that money have stopped me from, so I, I, um.
Uh, I have had one product that, uh, I still may make at some point, but it's, it would be cost prohibitive. I know, I know. I, I worked on it a few times and each time I'm like, God, I think this is gonna be probably about a hundred thousand dollars in mold cost and that didn't work. Or I'll tell you, actually, I'll tell you an example that I can actually talk about because there's one I still keep thinking about and I'll have to patent it.
But, but, um, the, so I, I designed a waterproof rain jacket and, um, and it's awesome. I have, I have, I have two of them that I made and, and I've never made them ever since. But, [01:00:00] uh, I was going to use event fabric and, and waterproof and truly waterproof fabrics that are breathable, breathable, waterproof fabrics, which again, I'm designing this for endurance athletes.
Um, and, and, um, there's really only two choices. Gore-Tex or event and event is, um, a little fancier and I, I, to my understanding a little better, so that was what I was designing it around and I designed all these cool features into it. I asked my ambassadors, I said, give me your wishlist and I'll do whatever I can to implement it in this design.
And so I went into it with like 38 critical to function feeder features, which you wouldn't think you could put into a jacket, but believe it or not, you take everybody's request and you get a lot. And, and so I, I gave almost everyone what they wanted and it is an awesome jacket. Um, but. I, you know, shame on me.
I guess I should have asked what the minimum buy was on fabric. But once we prototyped it and, and got well through the prototype rounds into be to be ready for production, which took probably 10 months, [01:01:00] um, uh, the factory is like, okay, okay, cool. It is a like, minimum thousand meter purchase on fabric. And it was like, I think it was just for fabric, if I remember it was $58 a meter and every jacket was gonna take around 1.7 meters of fabric.
And, and I was like, man, that's, uh, that math isn't matting with what I thought this would go for, you know, I just thought that was insane. But the, the fabric was extremely expensive and I didn't really have a good way around it. There was no, like, we stock it in black. It was like, if you want it, it's a thousand meter by.
Period. And you get one color, a thousand meters per color. And, and I was just like, man, I, I'm not, I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna spend, I'm not gonna do $120,000 jacket build. And that's what it was gonna be between labor and, and, and everything else. And, um, and I was heartbroken because here I'd spent all this time, I was all excited.
I'm like, this is going to be so freaking epic. This jacket is incredible. And I've used it in races where I've [01:02:00] worn it, you know, for, uh, almost 24 hours straight through variety of temperatures. And it self regulates really well. It keeps holding up. I keep, my son wore it the other night on his e-bike. I was ready to kill him because it's the, there's two, I only have two and I love them and I count on 'em when I'm doing things that can put my life in danger, you know, doing these big bike races or venture races when my gear is crazy important.
I only have two. And the one I don't like, 'cause it's, it is, it was a prototype color, it red, but I like my blue one. Anyway, I was worried he was gonna rip it on his e-bike going 50 mile an hour. But, um, uh, but that is one I ended up having to completely change paths and I had to switch to a windbreaker material and I didn't wanna launch anything that was gonna be a $400 jacket.
And that's, that's ultimately what it would've been if I would've launched
Riley: Yeah
Josh Sprague: event. Um, and I, I just, I didn't care that much about being a windbreaker company or, you know, rainproof company, but I thought a windbreaker that packs really small, uh, great for Trail [01:03:00] Ultra or anybody that's in the back country.
Um, this windbreaker with a, you know, 20 Dene nylon and DWR coating is still gonna have a, a strong waterproof barrier, but it was gonna have a time factor before that broke down. Um, that was important to me to at least have that in our lineup. And, and I have carried that with me, that, that model, um, a lot.
But, but when it comes to, you know, like super critical situations, I carry my prototype and, and anybody should do the same. You should, you should get a, a really powerful, awesome, you know, go spend $400 on a cortex or even BA fabric jacket, um, if you're going to be in those more dangerous situations. But, um, but yeah, that was, that was a giant limitation, just simply cash.
And, and, and it wasn't what, you know, I wasn't building a business based upon that. And, and I, I couldn't, I couldn't swing that. That was too scary for me.
Riley: there's two things that you said there and you know we we get that a lot where people are just like yeah you should come out with new flavors You should try putting this in your product You say and they have no concept of what that [01:04:00] minimum order quantity
Josh Sprague: yeah, Right.
Riley: you know how much it costs to introduce a new flavor just a new product with a new ingredient or
Josh Sprague: Yep.
Riley: that really looks like And you know that's something that companies have to do especially when you're growing in layers right You have to do
Josh Sprague: Yeah,
Riley: over time And um so I love that you
Josh Sprague: I,
Riley: about that and kind of mentioned I again something food for thought for people that were think well I just want another color another size or another whatever Well every
Josh Sprague: yeah.
Riley: a minimum order by right
Josh Sprague: It, it, it always hurts. Yeah. When, and we get those requests all the time. And, and to me the funniest one is pink. You know, people are like, do you make this in pink? I'm like, no. And back in the day it used to be like, yeah, you know, I'll make it and pink, what the heck? Next time I'll build 500 of'em or a thousand of 'em or something.
And, and then, and then it would be neat 'cause I go to an event I. They're like, do you have pink? Oh yeah, it's right here. And then, you know, I'm all excited 'cause I just made it and, and um, I remember the first time this happened was at an Ironman event and I launched pink. 'cause everybody kept asking about pink in the previous one.
And, and then they're like, oh, that's [01:05:00] really cool. I'll take the black one. And, and I, and I, each time I would ask 'em, okay, walk me through the psychology of what just happened there. I'm like, you asked for pink. You saw the pink, but you went with the black or a different color. And I'm like, what happened?
And they're like, well, you know, the problem is that pink I like, but that's not the pink that I always wear. And since I wear different shades of pink, that pink isn't gonna work. But since I wear different shades of pink, that predominantly black pack will work great for me. I said, okay, all right. Well that's duly noted.
And, and that's when I realized I can never make the right shade of pink. 'cause there's always the wrong pink. And and I've realized over the years that it's why we take a more conservative approach of how we build colors. And we, I have the more BMW Toyota Honda approach, however you wanna look at it.
Whichever brand where they often have, you know, black truck, you know, you got a brown truck, you got a, maybe an orange truck. You know, so we, we have kind of our simple cores that tie to our brand orange. But we also have our matte black, you know, packs. We have our, our coyote brown packs. We, we do a lot of military with, we always have with military police.
And, [01:06:00] and, but yet we have a lot of urban, you know, runners and riders that love the brown just 'cause it's cool. Um, but, but we've, we've learned that we can't, we need to be cautious about. What, what path we go jumping on because of request. Because a lot of times it can just, like you said, it can be like, oh, okay, yeah, sure, we'll build that.
That's only a $60,000 investment that may not work out. And we're, or we might buy enough inventory to last seven years and we've had that happen. Our black and pink, our gym bag, for example. Same thing. We always had the pink people asking for pink. And, and again, I'm very thankful to the customers that asked, but I, I will say that that inventory took us, I, I think we finally sold three of them maybe, but that was like a five or seven year inventory.
And that was an expensive learning curve. It wasn't just the money that we outlaid, it's, they only pack 10 per case. So there's a whole bunch of packs that gym bags that we had in our warehouse and my backup warehouse [01:07:00] for freaking ever, which has a cost. Right. And, and, and that's brutal, so.
Riley: yeah that's real man And I I think one of the things you mentioned that I you kinda just went right by that I want to I want to again food for thought for people is you said everyone was requesting pink right
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: reality was not everyone was requesting pink but in our head when someone requests anything as a business owner you're like oh that'd be that'd be cool I wish I could offer that
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: you feel like you almost feel criticized a little bit right
Josh Sprague: Right.
Riley: You don't you don't have pink But then the reality is the people requesting pink is probably one in a hundred
Josh Sprague: Right?
Riley: one in 500 you know
Josh Sprague: Sure.
Riley: that actually buy the pink is one in a thousand or 2000 And so
Josh Sprague: Yep.
Riley: those numbers that kind of almost appear negative
Josh Sprague: Mm-hmm.
Riley: the numbers of people who will say something negative or want something you don't [01:08:00] have or well I'd use it except you don't have pink uh is it's minimal There's not that many of em but
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: a lot of weight when they say something like that Right
Josh Sprague: Yep. Yeah. And it, you end up going down a rabbit hole. I had, I had a, um, um, it was a, a French that was in Europe for this international sporting goods show called ispo. And, um, and this guy, he headed up a, a giant chain of retail stores over there. And, and, uh, so it was exciting for us to meet with them.
And then, you know, he, he was looking at my packs. He's like, you're stitching, you're stitching this shit. I'm like, what do you mean? I'm like, what a, what a prick thing to say, you know? And he's like, sorry, I don't mean it's, it's shit. It's just that, that accent, you have this accent stitching on your packs.
Why would you do that? That's, that's, that's excessive. I'm like, no, it's because we have attention to detail and I'm proud of our stitching. It's where a lot of the junk that floods our market is not like that. And, and, and so I came off that and, and I, you know, at [01:09:00] first I'm like, screw this guy, you know?
And then. And then I was like, well, maybe he's right. Maybe I shouldn't, maybe I, I built this on my own ideals, you know, we'd take a black pack and we'd use orange stitching on a perimeter. 'cause I thought it was cool. And then I, I actually, I made black packs with pink stitching in the beginning to make it more subtle and, and, and variety of other colors.
Well, um, so then I, it, it, you know, even though it irritated me, I came back and I altered course and immediately after that I began work on a matte black, just a hundred percent black pack and um, and a hundred percent brown pack. And I, I got rid of our accent stitching. 'cause I thought, you know what, maybe he's right.
You look around, a lot of competition doesn't do what we do. But again, they can't because most people suck at the way they, the manufacturers suck at the, at the way that they are putting effort into making things. And again, that's, that is, that's where our strength is. So, um, so then I, I launched the more conservative approach of pacs and then all of a sudden I get a lot of people, Hey Josh, how come you got rid of your accent stitching?
I thought that was really cool. And I'm like, well, shit. I'm like, you know, I just can't [01:10:00] freaking win. You know, I, I, I thought I would make this to where it would blend with more outfits, you know? 'cause I thought, you know, there's pieces of what he said where I was like, you know what? He makes a good point.
And maybe people don't want that orange, even though it's black and orange. Subtle accent. Maybe they don't want that because they're wearing, you know, color of red that maybe will, will conflict. And, um, but ultimately you start to realize that. It, you need to do what works well for your brand. You need to do what works well for your consumers, and you listen to the consumers and, and you, you, um, mold the two together as clean as you can.
And then, you know, you take the most negative feedback, you take the most positive feedback, and you just try to find a happy medium in the middle because you,
Riley: Yeah
Josh Sprague: make everybody happy. And, um, uh, and as a result, you just have to kind of keep testing to see what's gonna work. And, and once you find it, you just double down.
You keep running. That's why again, we, that's why we have this conservative, conservative approach with how our color profiles are.
Riley: Yeah We we will get those things happen once in a while where somebody you know we named our [01:11:00] brand Salt electrolytes because it's a high powered electrolyte and it's salty man when you when
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: it's got definitely a salty taste to it So we we named the company that so people wouldn't be surprised when they drink it and it's salty
Josh Sprague: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Riley: Guess
Josh Sprague: That's good. This psychology works. Yeah, psychology works. We, you know, with our, with our, our, um, our hydro quiver backpack, for example, we don't have chest straps in that. And that was our first product. And, um, when we first started selling them, one of the first pushbacks that we get from people, um, as soon as they, you know, we'd chip it to them, they, they'd email in like, Hey, I'm, I'm gonna return this pack.
And, and, and I would say, okay, well why? Like, what, what does he don't like? Did you, did you run with it? And they're like, no, I didn't run with it. I just tried it on in my house. And, and, um, uh, and I, I just don't like how it feels. And I said. I understand. Um, our fit is different. You have to cinch it up nice and snug.
Um, and since there's no chest traps, you know, it's, it's important to be snug. And when you're in your house, I didn't design it for your living [01:12:00] room first off, uh, I designed it for running, but when you put it on in your living room, it will be a little bit uncomfortable at first, uh, because it's unusual.
But once you go for a run, you will find that it will sink in and it's gonna take you about three runs to figure this out. And I was like, just do me a favor. Go for a run. You, you know, you got 30 days. Try it out. It's, it's sweating it every single day. If you still hate it, send it back. But, but even after three runs, if you still hate it, let me know.
And it went from being, um, that initial conversation of, I'm gonna send this back. I'm not even gonna try it to, okay, I'll try it. And then I love this. And, and that was a consistent deal. So what we learned is we needed to, to beat him to the punch. And so, um, what I did is I wrote, I used, um, automation software, uh, at the time was Klaviyo.
And, um, I used automation software that would send an email out, uh, five days or three days after you made a purchase. And I would say, all right, tips for success. Um, be aware, this won't feel comfortable in your [01:13:00] living room. This is designed to be ran outside, not in your kitchen, wherever, uh, do these things.
Try it for three days.
Riley: that
Josh Sprague: Yeah, yeah. Oh, exactly. It's exactly what we said. Yeah. And, and, and it was amazing how like we don't hardly ever get returns. I mean, it's just stopped. I mean, it literally almost stopped as soon as we did that. And it's, and it's maintained to this day. So it's something though that sometimes, and, and it, it events is another good one where we would do that, we'd tell people as soon as we, we noticed if, when they tried it on, when we were at an Ironman expo or something, like, ah, I don't know, this feels weird.
We started doing the same psychology. We talked about this, like maybe what we've done in email would work here. So when we try, like, just so you know, when you try this on, it's gonna feel uncomfortable and you're probably not gonna like it, but go for a run here in front of the booth and you'll see what it feels like.
And as soon as we would say that, they're like, no, no, this actually feels great. Like, wow, I didn't expect 'em to say that, because it does feel unusual when you first put it on, but people always want to tell you that, you know the opposite, right? I mean, if you [01:14:00] tell somebody the sky's blue, you're like, well, yeah.
I mean, it pretty much is, I mean, it's kind of white actually today, or it's just kind of dark today. You know, people often wanna tell you the opposite. And so I, I have always enjoyed the psychological aspect of trying to understand how can we make sure that people get the best result? And, and sadly, sometimes it's, it's not tricking, but it's, it's putting the elephant in the room in it's literally putting that elephant in the room, I guess is the way to, to say it.
So, yeah, it's fun.
Riley: no I get that You know we'll cause we'll give out samples It shows at these events right And at different sporting events or whatever And
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: come up and they'll they'll try salt now and sometimes they'll see that they'll that look there's that look just like
Josh Sprague: Yeah. Yep.
Riley: sit and have a conversation with her and watching em reach down grab another cup and take another sip And next thing they know they drink a second one
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: they're buying a box You know But their initial reaction was almost like I'm gonna say something here almost almost to hurt your feelings
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: but I'm still gonna end up buying some cause dang I [01:15:00] I'm starting to feel it now
Josh Sprague: Yep, yep.
Riley: And uh yeah I love it It's a it's a it's a fun thing But as a new when we first started this you know two and a half years ago and we hit the market that nervousness of launching something out there in the public and I remember the first people who took drinks of it that weren't my friends and family right
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: I'm watching just like what's gonna happen here man I don't know I don't know what this is gonna this is gonna turn out And you know we've
Josh Sprague: Yep,
Riley: that 95 98 90 9 of people love it You know but you
Josh Sprague: Heck yeah.
Riley: those ones that don't
Josh Sprague: Well, and yours is one that your category, it's, it's tough to prove it unless you just, you know, run four hours at a time all the time or two hours at a time. Right. That's the hard part with electrolytes in general, is that it's tough to prove unless you know, unless you're somebody like me that's, you know, done a lot of stuff.
And I guarantee you, if you don't take electrolytes, you're gonna have a bad day. Guaranteed. If you're doing endurance sports, you're just gonna have a bad day. Um, and [01:16:00] it's, it's not complicated. We are, we aren't much different than a battery. Right. And without electrolytes, our body can't process the energy in the battery.
It's really that simple. But, but a lot of people, um, you know, will, will read it. It's, it's easy to get really confused, I think when you look at endurance nutrition. 'cause there's so many different angles, but ultimately you need electrolytes and you need calories. There's just no question. It's, we, we are, we are, we are energy.
That's what we are. So yeah, it's,
Riley: burning machines Yeah
Josh Sprague: yeah. Yeah. And it's, it really is, it's so important. But, uh, but it is tough if you, if you don't really prove it, you know, if you, if you're a consistent person that runs an hour and a half, you may not ever appreciate it because it's not that you don't need it, it's just you may not appreciate as much because you may just think, I got tired in that last 30 minutes of my run, or maybe the last 45 minutes of the run and it's because I was running for an hour and a half.
But it may be that you didn't have proper calories and electrolytes in your body that allowed you to have [01:17:00] a good hour and a half duration run. And, and it's, it's that simple. But you almost have to have the exact same climate, everything, every single day to be able to truly go, today I'm running with water only tomorrow, I'm gonna do, you know, my electrolyte mix.
And, um, yeah. But it's, as somebody that's done a lot of stuff, I, I am a thousand percent confident it works.
Riley: Yeah talk to me about this Josh You've got um got Orange mud which you
Josh Sprague: Yep.
Riley: you said 14 years ago Is that that what
Josh Sprague: Yep. Mm-hmm.
Riley: and then Seven Clay you're you're advertising uh what would you call it I guess Uh
Josh Sprague: Yeah. Branding company. Yeah,
Riley: marketing
Josh Sprague: do custom caps, t-shirts, you know, all the many custom branded merch is what we specialize in.
Riley: So first question orange mud seven Clay where's the dirt Come into all this stuff
Josh Sprague: Yeah. So my, my middle name is Clay. And, um, and when, when my son was born, which was, was really the, [01:18:00] the catalyst that brought upon orange mode in all reality. When he was born, I wanted to name him Clay. 'cause I always thought my middle name was cool, but since it was a middle name, I didn't ever use it. And my, my wife said, no, your middle name's stupid name.
And she always said she didn't, but it's the truth. She, and, and so I was trying to get her to buy into that. And, um, uh, but we named him Jacks instead. But three months after we had him, we hadn't slept in months. We realized that one of our jobs had to give. We both worked too many hours. And, and that's when I, I had this idea anyway for years.
And so I was like, man, I'm gonna put my name in this company and it's gonna be a trail, you know, maybe running, uh, trail running and, and uh, running company with maybe cycling and everything. Well, I wanted to have this outdoorsy feel. I wanted to have a name that people can spell. I hate it when I find a company name and I can't freaking spell it.
Um, and so I went on GoDaddy the night that I built my prototype and I bought 43 domain names and, uh, clay. It started with clay, which is a mud. [01:19:00] Um, and, and the mud is sometimes orange, sometimes gray. Um, and that's how Orange mud ended up coming to, to, uh, to fruition. And we just liked that name better for our business and, and what we had the vision of it becoming.
Um, even as rudimentary as that vision was at the time. 'cause I didn't know if I was smart enough to make anything more than the one pack. But, um, but that, that to me was, had a more sticky feel, if you will, for that brand. And then, uh, seven, which is my birthday of July and always been a lucky month for me, the seventh month of the year.
And, and, and seven Clay, it was easy to spell and it was a domain name that was available. So I bought it also back then. And um, and so when we, when we were basically forced to start our seven clay business, because the local businesses suck so much, um, that's where I was like, man, we're, I'm finally gonna use Seven Clay gonna get my name in my company.
This is gonna be cool. And uh, and we did, yeah. So yeah, that, that was [01:20:00] June of, uh, or September of 19 is when we started it. And um, yeah, seven Clay is was born and it's now bigger than Orange mud and continues to thrive. And, and we've taken the same methodology that we did with Orange Mud of. You know, quality always at the paramount of everything.
And, um, and just kind of grew upon that with building brands and leveraging all the connections. I mean, now we have incredible enough everything in house, but between lasers and screen print and embroidery and heat presses, and, you know, gosh, you name it, deboss presses, laser machines. Um, but, but yeah, it's, it's, um, uh, we, we basically can build dang near anything between our factories globally and, and then factories, right?
Our own factory right here in Round Rock.
Riley: Well you said something kind of cool there where or maybe it was Stephen off air I don't know if you said it but early in the interview or perhaps before we started recording that you created Seven Clay out of a frustration with some other marketing companies that were just not doing a good job for you[01:21:00]
Josh Sprague: Yep.
Riley: And then again your your company mantra you said is is uh innovation through frustration
Josh Sprague: Mm-hmm.
Riley: now you've built this other company that's you said outgrown orange mud
[01:22:00]
Riley: Right
Josh Sprague: Yeah. It's insane. Yeah. Yeah. It's, and it just simply,
Riley: I
Josh Sprague: I I, think that's the, the gist of probably a lot of companies, right? People get frustrated with whatever products are out there, and, and after a while, I mean, I think more than not, it usually comes out of like, man, somebody's gotta do this. And it, I guess it's gonna be me.
I didn't wanna start Seven Clay. It was something that. I literally did out of anger.
I I
I did not want, I actually was at a point where I often would ride my bike for like six hours on a Thursday, and, you know, one day a week I'd do a long ride during the day, prototyping new packs. But a lot of times it was just because I really enjoyed that.
But, uh, but all of a sudden we were in startup phase again, and then, then we hit COVID right afterwards. So like we, we were overbooked pretty much outta the gate. 'cause a lot of the races that I have sponsored and, and, and exhibited at over [01:23:00] the years, you know, they're like, Hey, you make patches, you make cats, you make shirts, and next thing you know, we were slammed and we had an incredible backlog.
Just like, just right now. I mean, it happened fast and then COVID hit and, um, and like we thought both businesses were gonna go away. Um, but I've, I've spent an incredible amount on, um, of time and money and Facebook and Google ads and, and, uh, 'cause all races just wiped out. So, uh, they were gone during COVID, so seven Clay's business base was a hundred percent zero.
Gone. Like, we went from four week backlog to zero overnight, um when the, when the bands happened. And, uh, but I had to switch gears and go into startup mode again. I'm like, all right, let's flip the advertise and switch live. We hadn't had to advertise at that point. And, um, and then, you know, the rest is history.
Now. We have a very diverse audience across all sorts of different areas. And, um, and it's been great. And Orange Mud survived too, of course, over COVID. So yeah, it's mayhem, mayhem, building businesses.
Riley: you cause you you [01:24:00] start this this uh little venture to solve a problem you have
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: it opens up the door for all these other customers to come in and all solve a bunch of other people's problems right So
Josh Sprague: Yep.
Riley: that's the true entrepreneur spirit right there
Josh Sprague: Yeah, yeah. It's, it is mayhem, but it, and then it's, it's crazy too, 'cause you get so many people that, you know, you wanna help everybody. But, but ultimately, um, as a guy who is, you buried my life in building an e-commerce based business, you know, you learn a lot of tricks along the way, and then you work, we work with tons of startups and smaller businesses, and I, and I wanna help everybody, but you hit a point where you're like, all right, you're, you're paying me, you know, $500 to make some hats, but yet I'm giving you five hours of open, free time to, you know, talk about business planning and digital strategy.
And it's like, at one point, that's why I, I, now I work from home more than not. 'cause when I'm at the office, I, I, I love it, don't get me wrong, but it's something that I, I found I could never get anything done because I usually end up getting stuck in conversations, which is again, great, but [01:25:00] there's a limit.
I gotta, I, I need to be working on the business more than, uh, in the weeds. Otherwise, it's never gonna, you know, there's too many problems that will happen,
Riley: that's right Both those are important right You need to be having those conversations with your customers and with your employees and you know kind of that basis But man if you if that's all you do yeah You never get anything done
Josh Sprague: right? Yeah. Yeah. I learned, I learned that all too well.
Riley: Yeah for sure So listen man can we uh switch gears and go into some to get to to know Josh a little bit more
Josh Sprague: Yeah, let's do it.
Riley: All right man So listen when you uh this this being called the Go Earn Your Salt podcast when you hear the phrase Go earn your salt what does it mean to you
Josh Sprague: Yeah. It's about completing whatever the goal is in front of you. And, um, to me that would be, if, if I tow the start line of a race, um, or if I tow the start line of a commitment to, you know, my, my family or, uh, my, you know, work colleagues that I'll [01:26:00] make sure I, I complete what I started. Um, I'd say that's, that's number one I, I'm a big fan of.
And I, if I tell you that, I always use the example of, uh, or like yesterday for example, I used this example where if I told you, Hey, let's go on a trail run on, on Saturday, and then all of a sudden on Saturday there's a tornado, a hurricane, and a snowstorm, um, uh, I would call you and be like, look, I know I told you I'm gonna be there, but the weather conditions are not very good.
If you want to not go, then we don't have to. But if you still want to go and the tornado and the hurricane and the snowstorm, I told you I'd be there. So I'll do it. But, but that's just the type of mindset I am. I'll still go do stupid things regardless. But, um, but yeah, commitment is, uh, to a goal is, is to me one of the most important things you can ever, ever do to earn your salt.
Riley: Yeah That's awesome man Uh Josh what's your favorite pastime of the endurance sports world Do you have something else you like to do
Josh Sprague: Uh, yeah, I mean, I have a lot of hobbies. Um, [01:27:00] and, and I, I know my wife loves 'em all, but because we have a lot of them in our garage and we had even have a ranch with, I have a storage container just of extra tools and gadgets. But, uh, uh, you know, I'm, I'm a big outdoors man and I love to hunt, love to fish.
I have a freezer full of, I always tell people I got a freezer full of dead animals, but it's, it's a freezer full of, of meat that is, um, you know, all harvest, harvested by myself or my son. And, and whether it's fish or deer or pigs or, you know, snakes, birds, geese, whatever. Um, I like to, I like to, I, I don't process all of it myself, but I do like to process an incredible amount of it.
And there's, there's sometimes that I, I'll use meat processors to do that for me, but a lot of it, I do process myself. I make my own meat sticks and jerky and a grind, burger and steaks of course, and, um, and everything under the sun. But, but I, I love to be able to, to hunt and fish and provide for our family where we, we [01:28:00] cook everything from, from scratch, um, you know, daily.
And we, we hardly eat processed foods in the house, at least if I'm cooking. And, um, uh, and again, a lot of it is from, you know, from, from straight, from nature rather than from. Whatever slaughterhouse that you may buy your beef or whatever from at the grocery store. So, uh, so yeah, that's, that's a big one I love on the outside of the normal run and ride and endurance sports.
Riley: Love it What uh what's something quirky about you that most people don't know
Josh Sprague: You know, I, I tell you that probably the weirdest one is I, I freaking hate crickets, you know, and I'm not afraid of hardly any animal. As a guy who has been a hunter and fisherman my whole life, I'll catch a snake with my bare hands and, and not even think twice about it. But, uh, crickets scare the death outta me.
Always have. And I, I got bit by a grasshopper and I was like six months old, and I don't remember this of course, but I had a scar on my back for the longest time. And this was a giant grasshopper. There's a name [01:29:00] for 'em, but they were like four inches long. This was in Kansas. My dad was out building fence one day, and, uh, he said I was laying on a blanket and, and, uh, he heard me crying.
He looks over there and there's a big old chunk outta my back and one of them giant fat grasshoppers on me. And, and, um, and
Riley: Holy crap
Josh Sprague: that is like psychologically embedded from them, but I always feel like a cricket can bite me. And, and I know they really, I mean, maybe they can, I don't know. But, but I, I am, I'm afraid of, I'm afraid of crickets.
I don't like them suckers at all,
Riley: so I didn't even know Grasshopper could bite you man but I guess if he's four inches long maybe
Josh Sprague: man. There, there are, I've only seen him probably 10 times in my life, but. Uh, there is this giant grasshopper, it's probably an inch in diameter that, that is, at least in Kansas, and you hardly ever see 'em. But, uh, every once in a while I'd be out there by a barn or some wherever in pasture and, and I'd see 'em.
I'm like, what the hell? There's one of them crazy suckers, and I'm not actually even scared of them, but it's a cricket. I like, I've been fishing before. People are like, let's go catch crickets for fishing. I'm like, you're on your own, man. Oh, [01:30:00] no, I'm just not doing that. They're nasty. I, I don't like crickets.
Riley: Oh my gosh You mentioned uh processing all your food and and not using or not using processed foods and
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: what is your favorite food
Josh Sprague: You know, I, uh, would say, um, I mean, actually my favorite food's, Thai food, but when it comes to, um, uh, what I like to make the most is for sure, like dried meats and, and I, I love making jerky out of everything. My favorite jerky is actually goose jerky of all things.
Riley: Really
Josh Sprague: you know, Canadian, I, I've hunted a lot of Canadian geese over the years and, and, uh, it has a little bit higher fat content than some other meats do.
And as a result, and it's super tender, um, man, it takes spice so well, I think some of the fat content in, uh, that's natively in the, the, you know, still fairly lean meat, um, it takes the spices better and it is. As long as you don't buy bite into [01:31:00] the steel pellet from the shotgun shell, you always wanna check for that.
'cause I've done that. Almost broke a tooth. The steel, the steel doesn't give it all. Um, but yeah, steel or goose jerky is, is phenomenal. But of course steel jerky is, is pretty good too.
Riley: dear Jerky's Pretty dang good Yeah
Josh Sprague: I love it.
Riley: what's the scariest moment of your life
Josh Sprague: Uh, yeah, that one I know for sure and it's a whole nother podcast. But, but, um, uh, my son and I were, were fishing with my buddy. Um, uh, this was probably five years ago. We were down by the Mexican border. We were at the Mexican border on the, the lake called Falcon Lake. And um, uh, and I put this link on my blog even a while back 'cause I, I wrote a story on this, but, but basically, um, we, we were on the shore looking for arrowheads 'cause the lake was really low and, and our boat blew off shore.
And,
Riley: no way
Josh Sprague: and, and it wasn't, you know, at the time when I jumped in the water and my boxers to go swim after it, the wet the wind wasn't blowing super hard. But next thing you know, um, the boat blew away. And I ended up swimming for a [01:32:00] few hours to get to the other side of the lake and finally got the boat.
They thought I died. They left to go get help and they were lost for a night. And we had over 70 search and rescue people out. I mean, it was a wild operation. And, um, and I was the one that ended up finding him of all things, which was kind of wild. So it was kinda a long story, but, but, uh, but that was pretty wild where, where I realized that they thought I died because they left.
They wouldn't have left because we were, we were a long ways from civilization, uh, where we were. And, and I knew they wouldn't get out in a night. It, it would be too long. And, um. Uh, so to imagine that your, your own son and buddy thinks you died is a terrible, and then to me on my side, I didn't know if they might've swam after me if they thought they saw me go down.
'cause the storm got to be pretty wild. Um, so I thought, you know, they thought maybe that I died and, and I thought they may have died. So it was a wild situation. Um, but you know, it all ended up working out. Everybody was fine. We, we still ended up fishing our, finishing our trip [01:33:00] even at, you know, after, uh, we took a day off on this one after being, you know, lost from each other for, uh, you know, a dozen hours.
But, uh, but yeah, that was, or a little over that, but that was probably the wildest thing. That was for sure the wildest thing, uh, ever. And I've had some good ones over the years, but that was the wildest ever that, uh, my, at the time, let's see, my son was probably 10 or 11 I guess then, and, um, you know, for sure hopefully will be the wildest story he's ever had too, of surviving in the bush overnight and,
Riley: man
Josh Sprague: you know, it was wild.
But, but yeah, that, that was for sure the, the scariest time, just imagining this whole scenario. And, and it wasn't even me swimming for a few hours after the boat. It was, um, it was, it was just the unknowns. And, um, and you know, what, what happened and, you know, seeing all these, you know, emergency agencies out here looking for, you know, for my buddy and my, my son was just a wild, wild situation.
So, yeah.
Riley: did you did you realize in the moment how serious that was[01:34:00]
Josh Sprague: Yeah, I did. A hundred percent.
Riley: Okay
Josh Sprague: Yeah. Uh, I mean, yeah, when you've got, when you've got, uh, uh, the National Guard set to St. A Cove looking for your, your buddy and your, and your and your son, uh, and you've got, um, you know, as many emergency services and human tracking dogs on the ground, uh, you realize that's pretty freaking serious.
Riley: so had you already gotten to the boat though by the time you realized those guys were all out there
Josh Sprague: I didn't know. No, no. Yeah, yeah. I, I'd already got to my boat after I swam across the lake. Um, I got to the boat this whole time. I didn't know they had left. And I mean, keep in mind I was in the water for at least a few hours. And, um, and so even once I got to the boat, that was a bit of an ordeal to get it off the shore.
'cause it, it, uh, it drifted back into this cove and it, and it, with the storms, you know, I was in four to five foot swells going across and, and, uh, and it, it beat the boat up pretty good. So, [01:35:00] uh, even once I got in the boat and I got back to where they were and I couldn't find a sign of them, um, you know, that, that is when I ultimately called, uh, the, the park service and, and explained what was going on and, and shoot, they didn't even get there for another two hours or so.
It, it took him a long while to come in. So, so yeah, it was, it was a, it was a long night, you know, that it, I mean, I didn't find him until 7:00 AM uh, around 7:00 AM the next morning. And, um, and I lost them. You know, I went swimming after the boat about four 15 that after, so, so yeah, it was, it was a whole rollout of more and more emergency services coming in.
And we had, you know, the, the park rangers, we had border patrol, Mexican American border patrol, and we've got search and rescue and human tracking teams, uh, uh, dog teams, scope trucks, uh, drones, um, you know, volunteers. I mean, there's people on horseback and quads and I mean
Riley: cause there's
Josh Sprague: it was an impressive operation.
Riley: Because you you got you got just the elements and then you've
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: [01:36:00] certain wildlife that can be pretty ornery down there And then you've
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: some cartel
Josh Sprague: A
Riley: if you're on the
Josh Sprague: hundred percent. Yeah. They even told us when we went in, they're like, just whatever you guys do, make sure you're off the lake before dark, because we do not, we do not regulate what happens on this lake after dark. Like the cartel runs it, like, you guys shouldn't be here. And we're like, yeah, duly noted.
And um, and we didn't plan on being out there all night. But, but that was a whole different scenario because it, it is a, a major drug running area by the cartel in the country. And, and so like we had, we had tons of weaponry in the boat. I mean, like I told my buddy, I'm like, it it, there's, there's no way we are deploying a single weapon unless we're literally about to die.
'cause like we kill anybody in the cartel. We're just, there's just gonna come kill our whole family afterwards, so there's no winning. Right. So we, we went in with, with um, you know, full protection in case of a bad circumstance, but, um, but it was in our, in our case, it was just mother nature was the most dangerous of all As, as, as most of the case for most of us outdoor people.
You know, we always worry about [01:37:00] all these other crazy things, but a lot of times Mother Nature is probably the most harsh person on the planet when it comes to, uh, if you're, if you're tempted fate. So, yeah.
Riley: the thing man I I've had experience in my life where and you alluded to this earlier uh when you ran outta water and had to drink outta the lake right That sometimes you don't realize the seriousness until maybe a little later when you're thinking about okay man that was close call
Josh Sprague: Yeah. Seriously.
Riley: Yeah
Josh Sprague: I mean, I, I got sucked up by a tornado once on my bike and there was nowhere to go. I was in South Dakota biking across a freaking state. And, and I remember seeing that tornado thinking. There's nowhere to hide. Like I was thinking, like you read, like if there's no other choice, lay down in a ditch.
And I was thinking, I don't wanna lay in these ditches that is just not good. They're like a foot lower than the road and the pasture. I'm like, it worst case scenario for me if I have to actually do this. And, and I was, you know, luckily it just didn't get me, I mean, I, I rode as hard as I could for 20 miles to get away from that damn thing, but yeah.[01:38:00]
Yeah.
Riley: an experience with tornado as a kid um where I was out on a just an inner tube and we were out in this lake and then and me and this other guy he was years older than me I was like 12 and he was 18 And paddled out to the middle of this lake Well we're we're like a mile and a half from shore we were just commenting how small little people looked on you know like way out there and how far out here We thought we were so cool
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: Well the wind starts coming up sort of like your boat story
Josh Sprague: Mm-hmm.
Riley: And so we start paddling back to shore Well I'm this little dude right And I'm not as strong as the big guy Well he paddled in left me in the dust
Josh Sprague: Oh, no.
Riley: I'm out here paddling I'm realizing the wind's pushing me backwards far faster than I'm going forward And I'm not really making progress but I was comfortable on the on the tube you know but all of a sudden the swells are you know three four foot tall and
Josh Sprague: Sure.
Riley: and I'm not processing how much danger I'm in I have no life jacket I just I'm on this tube That's that's my one thing that's keeping me up And and uh this [01:39:00] guy in this boat come out he says Hey man your mom asked me to come pick you up Well I'm a 12-year-old kid I'm like that's what I've been taught in school is a stranger's gonna say your mom told me
Josh Sprague: Right.
Riley: Well you know fortunately I looked into shore and I could see her waving and I I'm like okay I probably should just get on this boat
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: risk than what's going here So I jump on he takes me in you know two minutes later we're on shore and everything was good Well just a minute later man like we're driving out of there and a tornado hits the reservoir
Josh Sprague: No way. Oh
Riley: spout right
Josh Sprague: my God.
Riley: man I'd dodged a bullet
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: you know ended up I didn't recognize how much danger I was in while it was happening
Josh Sprague: Yeah,
yeah, And I mean, that's just, that's just it, you know? I guess I look at it as when, when our time comes, it comes, but yeah, I mean, I don't want it to happen for a long time. I got a lot of stuff to do,
Riley: Yeah
Josh Sprague: it, but it is, it, there's, I mean, I've been out [01:40:00] in, in bike rides where, you know, lightning was hitting all over and, and, and you just are like, you know, you just, damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Sometimes, you know, it's
Riley: Yeah
Josh Sprague: or I can sit here, and either way the lightning's hitting all around me. No situation's good. You know, I, I, yeah, it's. I don't know. It's scary. I'm, I'm thankful. I think the older I get, the more I realize that I've been lucky a lot and, and, you know, you just, you feel like, like a cat sometimes.
You're like, well, how many lives have I exhausted in this luck, you know, in this matchbook of lives? Um, and, and so I, I do get, I am a little more conservative than I used to be. Now it's like, if it's some crazy rainstorm out there, I'm like, I'm gonna find a safe spot. I'm gonna hole up. You know, there's no reason to push it.
You know, I don't, I don't wanna go out by lightning. Like, lightning's frightening. That's just a bad way to go. Um, you know, I, if I'm gonna die, I hope to get hit by a bus or something, or a mountain lion that's gonna get me when I'm on my bike or something. I might, I want to go, I want to go cool. I don't want to [01:41:00] go with like, idiot was riding in a lightning storm got killed.
That just sounds bad, you know? So that's irresponsible.
Riley: Oh my gosh Oh Josh what's the what's the best advice you've ever received
Josh Sprague: Um, you know, I would say just stop worrying about what other people may say. Right? And, and it, and when you, when you own an e-commerce business like I do, um. Yeah, I'm not gonna say it's always easy to, to, to, you know, to check this thought process, but, um, but yeah, you just, you can't worry about what everybody says, you know?
I mean, I mean, like with you, I'm sure there's gonna be people like, oh, your electrolytes suck because whatever everyone they're sponsored by or use whatever's better, right? And there's no way around that. And you're like, okay, you know, you'll probably lose sleep over it though. I do. You know? And if people are like, ah, your bottle based packs, like when, like my backpacks for example, uh, uh, we have, you know, bladders and flask based packs now, but in the beginning [01:42:00] it was all bottle based packs.
And I'd have people tell me like, your packs look stupid. I'm like, well, thanks. I mean, thanks. I mean, I, it'd be nice if you would've said it a little bit differently than that, but I guess if that's the way you wanna approach it, fine. But it's something that I have tons of people are like, man, I love your pack.
I love that. Like, people call me rocket man, I just think it's so cool. Or buzz light year or whatever, you know, I've seen it all. And, and, and they say that in a positive way, but yet at the same time, I've had people, uh, I've had people say it in, even in a positive way. Like, Hey, just no offense, but your packs look stupid.
If you ever make a bladder pack, I will buy it though. 'cause I'd love to support your brand. I'm like, okay. Like, that's a nice way to say it. For the most part. I at least took that positively. But, but yeah, you, you, you definitely. Gotta march your own path, right? And you just can't always listen to what people say.
You just gotta, if you have an idea and you believe in it, and, and, um, or if it's your own morals, even for that matter, just whatever it is in life, you know, just stick to it. Like, that's, that's how I'm gonna be and that's how I am. And I'm sticking to it and everything's [01:43:00] gonna work out.
Riley: Right back to run your own race right
Josh Sprague: Yeah, yeah. Run your own race, man. Yeah, that's, yeah. And then stay positive. That's really the other part, you know, there's just, there's no time to be negative in life and, and it doesn't accomplish anything. And, and, um, and again, I'm not perfect at it, but, but I, I do, if I am ever in a negative state, somebody puts me in a bad mood.
I usually try to go for a run or bike ride. Bike ride for sure always makes me happy, but, but a run will get me happier. Bike ride always makes me happy. Um, and, and that, that, uh, that brings my inner peace.
Riley: Mm-hmm And what's a what's an item on your bucket list Something you'd like to get done before the end
Josh Sprague: Oh man. Now my bucket list is big. Uh, I mean, I think of ideas all the time and, and I already, I'm 48 and I already dread that I don't have enough time left to do everything that I want. 'cause I have a lot that I want to do. Um, but, um, my list is huge, but I will say that, [01:44:00] um, I think it'd be easier to answer with what I'm doing, answer with what I, one thing I'm tackling this year because.
I could go on for thousands of items, but, um, I've always wanted to ride the white rim. And, and so this year, uh, it's a hundred mile trail in Moab, Utah, and it's supposed to be one of the most iconic a hundred mile route in the country. Yeah. And, and I've watched documentaries on it over the years and, and I just always thought it'd be really cool.
And so, uh, uh, my buddy Jack and I were talking about, you know, getting together for a bike race this year, ride, you know, somewhere. And, and, uh, and I was like, man, let's just go do the right white rim. It doesn't have to be racist. Let's just go ride it and enjoy. And, um, and then from there, I, I told my son, he's 14 and he's never PID that far, but, but he's, he's a really good athlete.
And I was like, Jack, you wanna do this? He's like, yeah, sure. Like, so, so here he is gonna be doing, we're gonna break it into two days rather than just knock out a hundred miles. Which I know if Jack and I were doing it, that was, that's how we would do it, just 'cause [01:45:00] we're idiots. But, you know, we, I, the older I get, the more I want to stop and smell the roses.
And
Riley: Is
Josh Sprague: um, and
Riley: that goes it's like on the slick rock but it's on the super steep incline and it goes like straight across the hill Is that is that the white rim
Josh Sprague: I think you're thinking maybe porcupine rim, um, which is, what's that? 30 miles, which is epic and I have done that. Uh, but no, the, the.
Riley: in that spot right cause you're
Josh Sprague: Yeah. Yeah.
Riley: a
Josh Sprague: Most of it's, oh yeah, the falls in Moab can really hurt you. Yeah. And that's the funny part about it, is that you're riding on stuff, you're like, wow, this is really easy to stick to the ground.
However, if I crash, I can also fall to my depth and, and, and in parts of, of trails out there. But, um, but no, the white rim, it, it's mostly traversing this, this rim, um, of, of this valley. And, uh, and you've got a bunch of big ups and downs, a lot of vertical gain, you know, in their first week of June, which is when we're going, it's gonna be really freaking [01:46:00] hot.
But, um, but no, but it's, we're gonna break it into to two 50 mile days. We're gonna do a warmup day on single track on Tuesday, and then we're gonna do, uh, two fifties. And, um, and the whole thought was, let's make it fun. And then let's also be able to go back and have some beers and some burgers afterwards at night at the Airbnb and get a shower and nice clean, you know, cleaned up and, and, because my cousin, he's coming and he's like, well, why don't we, why don't we barbecue and just picnic?
And I'm like, or camp on the trail and, and you know, just live out there. And I'm like, nah, I've done that. That, that's, that's, that doesn't sound as much fun as a comfortable bed. Air conditioning and beer and burgers at night afterwards. So,
Riley: There
Josh Sprague: but yeah, that's gonna be an epic trip. And then, and then my wife, wife and kids are coming in, or my daughter and my wife are coming in afterwards and we're gonna do, you know, hiking in Moab and, and go whitewater rafting and explore some trails in Colorado and, and New Mexico.
In Texas on the way back. So we're gonna make a whole big adventure out of it. And, uh, and I, to me, I, I just, I've always liked to pick off adventures and pick off, um, [01:47:00] these different, you know, different layers of the bucket, if you will. Um, but, uh, but this year, that's, that's the big one. And I plan on doing some big moto stuff this year.
I bought a, I bought my first, uh, adventure bike, uh, moto side. And, uh, and I'm gonna do some, you know, at least a hundred, couple hundred mile rides. And I, I like to do one 500 mile, you know, this summer. And, and, um, and, you know, going forward in the future, I, I definitely see that being another bigger chapter of my life as opposed to the cycling side.
I cycling I'll never get rid of, but, but I've always wanted to ride like from America to the tip of South America or us, uh, to the tip of South America. I thought that'd be cool. Or just ride across the US for that matter. So
Riley: Yeah
Josh Sprague: there's, yeah, I got a, I got a lot of things to do.
Riley: so my uh I got a few buddies in a are into that adventure bike and they're going to Moab I think next week There's a group of four of em that are going down That'd be
Josh Sprague: Yep. I guarantee if you talk to 'em, they're probably gonna be a ride in the white rim. Some people do that on motor, on motorbikes as well.
Riley: it's it's it could be [01:48:00] it could be I I said earlier that I knew exactly what you were talking about I was thinking of the when you call the porcupine rim
Josh Sprague: yeah.
Riley: cause I've seen so much uh just YouTube footage of guys ride Then to me that one looks scary but
Josh Sprague: Yeah. There's, there's scary riding up there, but it's, it's awesome. If you're a mountain biker, you just gotta, it, it's, it's a commitment for sure. There's Moab is, is, um, it's, it's awesome and there's beginner friendly stuff, but it's, it's just the exposure, which is what's scary. And sometimes it's really not even, I, I mean, you take an average mountain biker, you'd be like, ah, it's not scary.
But, but yet, as soon as you fall down, you realize, ah, it's kinda scary because it's something really simple can turn into something problematic. But, uh, but man, Moab, it is, it is just a, it's a mountain bikers, jeepers, uh, motor bikers, uh, hiker for that matter, playground. It's, it's an awesome spot. If you haven't been there, it's, it's definitely a bucket list to go to.
Riley: man Yeah I've never
Josh Sprague: It is.
Riley: so I need to
Josh Sprague: Yeah.[01:49:00]
Riley: Josh what's your favorite book Something you recommend everyone read
Josh Sprague: Yeah. Uh, endurance. Um, um, the, the book about Shackleton's Adventures to the Arctic, it is definitely one of the coolest books I've ever read, or it is the coolest book I've ever read. Um, because it, it, what I like about it the most is that it, it teaches you that, um, whatever it is that you have heart in your life.
And I don't care at any level. It doesn't even matter. They went through something harder and these guys lived in the Arctic for, I haven't read it for probably 10 years, but it's, um, you know, they, they lived in the Arctic for like three or four years, maybe five years or something, and just eating whale blubber and eels or, uh, uh, seals and, and you know, diminutive grains and whatever, you know, minuscule, anything they could scrounge up.
But, but yeah. Um, endurance. It is an incredible book. If you're, you know, endurance Junkie, it's, I've listened, I listened to it, um, on Audible when I was, [01:50:00] um, you know, training for a hundred mile trail run and I just had a lot of time on foot running and just banged out books. But that one is hands down, hands down.
My favorite, um, favorite book out there.
Riley: Sometimes you read those and they're inspiring but you kind of feel like a pansy at the same time cause those
Josh Sprague: Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah. I know I've done a lot more crazy adventurous than most people have, but after I read that book, I'm like, I'm lame. Like, anything I'm doing is inconsequential compared to what those people did. Or I'll tell you, another good one is 438 days. Um, I think it's 4 38, um, 4 48. 4 38. Uh, it's about, uh, this, these two fishing boat guys, they, uh, they, they drifted its sea for 438 days from like somewhere in Latin America, like, I think it was Nicaragua, uh, to.
Somewhere, some island, uh, over in Asia somewhere. Um, I don't remember where now, but, um, but same thing, it's about just survival floating in a boat for a year and a half. It's like I would've died that, that, [01:51:00] I know I have a strong will to live. I'm pretty sure at one point I'd just be like, you know what? I think I'm done.
That's too long to float in a boat. I, I can't imagine. So yeah, you read things like that, it just gives you a whole nother level of, of, you know, the human will to fight and, and live and, and, uh, yeah. It's another good book
Riley: That's wild man I'm gonna have check both those out That sounds like fascinating
Josh Sprague: there. They're good. Yeah. I, I, I listened. I think I've listened to like 240 books now over the years, um, uh, on my audible book library. And I just, I love Audible. It, it passes a lot of time and, and, uh, gives me something to think about when I'm out running and ride driving wherever.
Riley: Oh there Yeah for sure Um I'm in that boat with you for sure Um what's uh what's next for you man What's your next challenge
Josh Sprague: You know, the next challenge this year, it's all, it's been about, um, just really dialing in my team and, and, um, uh, on the business side and, and we, you know, constantly tweaking our systems. It's [01:52:00] something that, that I, I believed really strongly in a system-based, um, growth model for our businesses. And, and, uh, we implemented EOSA couple years ago and.
And, um, and, and it's been amazing for us. And, uh, but it's just the constant tweaks. You know, it, oh, there you go. Got traction back there, or not traction. Uh, yeah, there you go. Yeah. Perfect. But yeah, we, we hired an implementer to help us put that in place. And, and, and it was, it was really, it was a staggering change, uh, for us to, to do that because, um, it was, it was that book, but I also read who Not How and, uh, who not how, which basically sums up, I mean, no offense to the book, but it, the title kind of tells you everything you need to know and, you know, do you need to be the person doing the job?
Um, uh, or could it be somebody else? And, and once I realized that I was extremely important in pretty much every aspect of the business, um, because I'm the problem solver and I'm the guy who fixes everything, [01:53:00] um, I realized that, that, that I was actually the problem. I was the guy who fixed the problems, but I was the problem.
And, and so by putting EOS in there and establishing an org chart and a really, a role chart is the way I'd rather say that, um, is, you know, we, we isolated everything to, okay, do I need to be the web designer or is it, I'm the web designer because I'm just type A and I want to control it. And, and then I realized like I already have people on my team that can be web designers and they are a web designer and they can be.
So, um, we, you know, we broke out all the rules and, and that cleaned up everything a lot. And then, you know, I'd say now, you know, a couple years in, it's just we're constantly tweaking it, but. But we've probably also gone through this last six months where we haven't addressed that as much as we should have.
And, and, uh, and so now we're kind of, we're all pushing for new little micro tweaks or some things like, hey, are, do we need to still be doing that? Or do we need something totally different? And so, um, uh, that's, that's probably my goal business wise this year is just, uh, or at least well before the summer, is, [01:54:00] uh, to clean up some of them other processes that we've either should have atta attached for a while, um, uh, or, or, um, you know, maybe add some new ones that can get more clarity.
And with that, I, I keep trying to get time back in my day 'cause I want to be able to spend more time with my family and riding bikes and running more. And sometimes it's hard to envision how, like, my big Moab, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, Kansas trip is going to play out in June, which is coming up real fast.
And that is, systems are gonna be my savior there. So systems of my team,
Riley: you know we started running uh EOS gosh 10 years ago or so in my
Josh Sprague: yeah.
Riley: company not salt electrolytes although we do it there too But my other company's older It's almost 20 years old now And
Josh Sprague: Nice.
Riley: 10 or gosh maybe even 12 years ago we started running that EOS system And
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: man it it it's profound It's just that the only way to put it when
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: Wickman's really got a got a pulse on what's going on in a [01:55:00] business and how to systemize it and
Josh Sprague: It is crazy.
Riley: Yeah
Josh Sprague: Like we, it was, it was my birthday in July, um, you know, almost three years ago now, that, um, everybody had shirts on that says, you know, Josh is here. He's our MacGyver, he's the tuo, he was a multitool, whatever. And, and, and I was very thankful everybody did that. It was very thoughtful, but it, it was, it was, it, it actually kind of made me sad that day because I realized like, man, that's what everybody thinks of me.
And, and in a way that's, that's complimentary. But, you know, I would say earlier in my career, I always, I always wanted that credit for doing something awesome. And then now as I get older, I don't want any credit. I don't need it. I've got plenty of credit in my life and I realize it doesn't matter. I'd rather have somebody else have the credit and have the role, have the responsibility, and then most importantly allows me to do other things.
And, and, and, um, like, you know, working on the bigger picture of how, you know, how do we continue to grow the business, which allows me to hire more people and, you know, and scale and everything. So, um, uh, it, that, [01:56:00] that was the turning point for me that caused me to say, yeah, I need to, I need to change something.
And, and it, it's, it systematize a lot of things, really. Even just, sometimes it's just basic things in your house, you start to think of differently after you do that. You know, maybe we need an SOP with for how we manage, you know, um, like a list of all the bills that we pay just to make sure that we're doing it right.
And I mean, it, it, you start to go a little crazy on it, but. Um, but everybody on the team knows I love SOPs. I'm a big fan of 'em, and
Riley: it
Josh Sprague: yeah, it's great.
Riley: the wheel all the time You know I remember when
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: I first put when we file sales tax every month or sales and use tax with the state right That's a process And it the first few times I did it I remember man it would take me half a day and to pull all the numbers and get the right reports and make sure I was doing it correct and double check and all this kinda stuff And then I made a SOP for it and
Josh Sprague: Yeah,
Riley: I just pull that document up and I just go step by step through it and I
Josh Sprague: exactly.
Riley: taxes in [01:57:00] seven minutes
Josh Sprague: Yeah. Yep.
Riley: I had to recreate the wheel and it was a half a day every time I did it Now it's seven minutes and I'm done It's
Josh Sprague: Or you find out in doing, in documenting it that, um, you weren't doing something right. You
Riley: Yeah
Josh Sprague: the other cool part about, about documenting things is that you, you start realizing your own knowledge is probably weak. And, and I know every time I've, I've built out something like that, I either through own self-discovery or through releasing it to whoever is gonna be responsible or whoever, uh, the, the team is responsible.
Usually you find out like, well, Josh, that's not how we're actually doing it, or, that doesn't actually work. And you know that. I'm like, okay, like, I didn't know that. So it, but it, it at least gets everybody on the same page to reduce am ambiguity and friction also, which is nice. Um. You know, it's, like I said, it's definitely not, it's not perfect, but man, it's better than not.
And you just don't realize, like our onboarding right now, like, we just hired a new [01:58:00] sales lady, um, on my seven clay business on Monday, and I wasn't even involved at all. I mean, I had hired her, but, uh, my assistant, uh, Eileen, I was like, Hey, you got it. I, you need me for anything? And she's like, no, I got it.
No, you're good. So, because we have it all, doc, everything documented, we have, we have an onboarding system, we have a folder we share. As soon as you start that my whole seven Clay team uses
Riley: anything
Josh Sprague: or Orange Mud, same thing. And, and it's all systems. Here's your work construction document. Here's one that tells you how to do everything.
It has the links to every individual task, every individual SOP, and, and it's just so cool, like once we finished that, it was such a burden off me to where I knew I could say, Hey, you can ask me these questions if you have questions after you read that. But read that first and then ask me questions.
Riley: Mm-hmm
Josh Sprague: you wanna make something better, by all means you spell out how it's gonna be better and then we'll make an amendment to it.
But, you know, ever since we, we got everybody on board with it. [01:59:00] Uh, I, I can say that coming from a company bigger, you know, I used to run 170 person company before I started my own. Um, their SOPs were, were important. They were critical from a quality perspective and ensuring a consistent product and all that.
But it was something that back then I think people looked at as we had to have it as like a job description essentially.
Riley: Yeah
Josh Sprague: And, it wasn't as much like, yeah, you know, our, our job, it varies too much in the day, but we don't, we, my whole team didn't approach it like that. I really thought they would've, and they, and no one did.
Everybody was like, this is great. Which made me realize everybody wanted a little more clarity and separation of powers with, within our, our business because everybody got,
Riley: man
Josh Sprague: people got roles that they didn't have a, a defined leadership role. Uh, but now all of a sudden like, no, you're in charge of this, so if there's a problem, so no, you're the one that we're coming to.
So it's your responsibility to train these people. It's your responsibility to manage [02:00:00] and, and again, is it perfect? No, but, but man, it sure, it sure cleared up a lot of the ambiguity and, um, and yeah, I, I'm forever, forever thankful that we did it. And it, it's, it's, it's awesome.
Riley: That's pretty amazing man I I do have a question for you and this is uh we're gonna wrap things up here in a minute but the first time you mentioned hiring this lady and you weren't involved in it Do you remember the first time a business process happened and you weren't involved in it Did you ever have those feelings of like I guess I'm not needed here anymore Almost almost put
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: cause
Josh Sprague: No,
Riley: just did it It's like you you you do all this work to get there and then when it
Josh Sprague: yeah,
Riley: you almost feel like crap man do I not matter anymore Did you ever experience that
Josh Sprague: no, a hundred percent. No. No. Never actually, no.
Riley: so
Josh Sprague: relief. It's relief. That's what it is. Because, you know, it's, it's something where, uh, I think many of us, uh, business owners are [02:01:00] just, you know, employees as well. I feel like we're just glued to our freaking phones and our computers, and we feel like we need to get outta bed at nine o'clock to go solve something.
Right? And, and, um, by removing myself from the criticality of some of these things, it's nice that I just, I don't have to think about it. I mean, just like a perfect example, this, I mean, as a, as a current one, I used to review every single quote that my seven clay business sends out. And. Uh, you know, for years, and this was like two months ago,
Riley: Holy
Josh Sprague: a big fan.
Like I, I set a monthly, uh, reoccurring, uh, calendar item that says, um, what are you doing today that you don't need to be doing? And, and it's only once a month, but, uh, but I like it because it makes me think, what, what do I not need to be doing that I'm doing every day? And, and so I kept, I kept thinking, I'm like, I, I am the one that has to prove all these dang quotes every day.
And we quote a lot of stuff, like we get 50 to a hundred leads a day as we're quoting maybe 10 of those a day. And, [02:02:00] and, uh, so I told Eileen, um, I was like, Hey, I'm like, you got this right? I mean, we have the systems and everything here. Can you just approve all the quotes for me? Can I take a step back from this?
And she's like, yeah, sure. I'm like, awesome. And that was at like two in the afternoon. I haven't looked at that thread ever since. Just, I just cold Turkey stopped. Now could cold Turkey stop, be a little bit reckless? Yes. Now that being said, like, she will message me and, and say, Hey, you know, do you mind looking at this one?
'cause this is, I'm not sure. But, but she, she immediately just took the bull by, the horns took over. I haven't looked back. That was like two months ago. And, and it, it's like, that was really stupid that I didn't do that sooner. That was awesome.
Riley: Well it's kind of funny man cause I I I totally felt that way There was there was this you mentioned relief there was this feeling of relief where I was like oh this is so cool
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: But then there was also this underlying like thing I had to contend with that was like man I'm not I'm not needed[02:03:00]
Josh Sprague: Yeah,
Riley: cool but yet I'm not needed And it it I remember it hit my ego a little bit and there was the first time I looked at uh at our list of you know we had made that week and there was a customer on there I didn't know that came through the whole system
Josh Sprague: yeah.
Riley: served popped out the other system or other end of the system happy And I didn't know who that person was It was it was a weird transition for me And I I remember had to
Josh Sprague: Yep.
Riley: that a bit It was it was interesting
Josh Sprague: Oh yeah. No, it's, yeah, and I can relate on some of them levels for sure. I
Riley: I
Josh Sprague: you know, over the years, back when I was scaling the manufacturing company, I, that I ran it, I remember seeing somebody in the shop one day and, and I was like, who is that? And they're like, that's, you know, whatever Bill, like you, you hired him.
And I'm like, really? I don't remember that. And I'm like, huh. Well, you know, I mean, at the time we were growing so much and, and building the systems and everything, and, and here I didn't even remember [02:04:00] the person. It's not like, not often I forget a face, but. But you know, that's, I think it just goes, it shows sometimes you just gotta count the systems and the teams, uh, to do it.
And, you know, I was the only person interviewed and picked 'em, but, but still, you know, I didn't do the onboarding and everything, but, but yeah, you, you start to realize that, that those systems, they exist for a reason. It's the reason why these big companies build successful businesses. A lot of us small businesses, we just fight all the time.
That's all we do. We're scrapping trying to survive. Right? And, and if you build a system, uh, you hopefully don't have to scrap, you know, you can run more efficiently. You, you waste less expense. And, and, and even I, I, I use, I use the heck outta Claude Cowork right now, and I've been just organizing even a lot of it.
I'm organizing systems. I mean, I, I manage between my three businesses and, and three other companies that I manage on top of that, um, it's, it's a, I mean, of, of marketing systems anyway with them. Um, it's a lot of accounts just to manage. And that's one of the things I was putting together yesterday. I'm like, organize, like, most [02:05:00] people don't realize how complicated Google is just to do Google advertising.
It's not a Google Ads account, it's a Google analytics and Google merchant account, Google Business Center, Google Search Console, you know, and,
and
then and then making sure you have all these properties syncing properly and all the tagging and everything. And so like yesterday I was just building up, I started with just orange mud.
I'm like, let's just make sure I have all this tight and in one document. And now I have my marketing approach document, which I've been working on for a couple weeks. But yesterday was finally, finally that point where I'm like. I've been working on all the pieces, but I, I took a step back and I thought maybe I should just address the bones.
And so I started doing that with the top of, of each business and, and organizing just the account numbers that I have, just so I make sure I'm not losing sight of that so I can cross check everything, make sure everything's talking properly. So there's just so many pieces that you're constantly making these adjustments for, to be able to run more efficiently.
And, um, and I know most businesses struggle at, at all those things, but let alone,
Riley: For
Josh Sprague: digital [02:06:00] side's a, a monster in, in e-commerce anymore enough small businesses, um, uh, or big, you know, they, it's, it's something you have to contend with and you can't manage it unless you have systematized an approach to what are these accounts, and then how are you obviously gonna be, uh, you know, scaling them and ensure they're working properly going forward.
Riley: Yeah for sure man Yeah It's amazing to me how how big it gets you know cause in my head salt electrolytes is gonna be this simple simple business but the amount of moving parts is staggering
Josh Sprague: Yeah. Yeah.
Riley: in the digital world you
Josh Sprague: Yep.
Riley: manufacturing world the supply chain the yeah Distribution It's it's all like
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
Riley: Okay on a second I need to I need to breathe here for a second just to get my head wrapped around it exactly what's
Josh Sprague: Yep.
Riley: yeah it's
Josh Sprague: E-commerce is, is insanity. Like our seven clay business is so much simpler. Um, and you know, we are largely B2B, but, um, so it's still, uh, but, but digitally, so it's a lot of e-commerce in it, in in the [02:07:00] same parallel. But, but with orange mud, the, the digital ecosystem is staggering between all of the things integrate on the PPC side and analytics, um, and, and everything that is required to comply with state and federal regulations.
And, um, I mean, it's, it's insanity. It really is. It's something that, you know, anytime people ask me like, Hey, you know, I wanna start an e-commerce business, I'm like, well, don't, I mean, let's really want to, you gotta be careful what you ask for, man. 'cause it's, it is, it is a monster and it's gotten more crazy over the years.
But,
Riley: Yeah
Josh Sprague: but man, it, it really is, it's a monster. And I, I feel like, man, I live and breathe this every day and there's still days where I'm like, man, I can't imagine starting in this right now. It
Riley: yeah
Josh Sprague: was, way simpler back when we started. We didn't, when you only had to collect sales tax in the states you're in.
But now we have destination based sales tax and. And, you know, nexus that we've had in a lot of states and, and you know, I'm collecting, you know, people don't understand it. [02:08:00] Consumers don't understand like, why are you collecting sales tax for my local city and whatever, Blythe, Arizona. I'm like, because that's your state regulation that I have to do that and I have to comply and I have to file with that.
That sucks.
Riley: Yep
Josh Sprague: But it is, it's what you have, so
Riley: Yeah Most people have never even heard the word nexus you know And don't know what that what that is at also
Josh Sprague: Yeah, It's, and, and even com and most of us don't even know what it is, you know, I mean, that's just it. Like the nexus, the Nexus rules are crazy in themselves, and that's why we pay, you know, for fancy software to help to make sure we comply with whether we do or whether we don't collect sales tax in a given area.
And, and, um, because those, those nexuses are like, it's not black and white. It's like well, you're in yellow, like we're in yellow in some accounts. I'm like, does that mean do I need to pay them? My bookkeeper's like, well, no. I'm like, well that doesn't sound concrete. And
Riley: It doesn't sound
Josh Sprague: they're like, you're probably okay to not for now.
I'm like, well, I mean yes or no, eh, you know, [02:09:00] I probably wouldn't, but you could if you wanna be safe. I'm like, shit.
Riley: How how about we be safe right
Josh Sprague: Yeah. Yeah. It's like, gosh, man, and just one more layer of expense. Every new state, one more layer of expense you gotta pay.
Riley: right That's
Josh Sprague: yeah.
Riley: Awesome man Well Josh I appreciate the you coming on here today man It's been I could talk to you for another two hours or so Every everything you say there's another there's another thing I'm like man we could springboard off that so easily and
Josh Sprague: Yeah.
No, that's fun.
Riley: we'll have to do is a part two here one of these days
Josh Sprague: Yeah. Well, I've got, I've got some good adventures we can tell.
Riley: Oh that's awesome man Well listen dude thanks again for coming on
Josh Sprague: Likewise.
Riley: I wish you well I I need to get uh oh you know what I forgot to ask you is where where can you be found Can you tell us your social
Josh Sprague: yeah. It's uh, uh, at Orange Mud, you look up orange mud.com or seven S-E-B-E-N-C-L-A y.com seven Clay. Um, uh, you can look me up. Easy to find contact on there. Or if you just Google me, I'm pretty easy to find. I'm freaking everywhere, [02:10:00] so, yeah. I'm an easy one to find.
Riley: All right my friend Well as always go earn your salt
Josh Sprague: I will, I'll keep trying. You do the same.
Hey, you've just finished up this episode, and I wanna know, are you or someone you know a getting after it, go earn your salt type of person? If so, message me directly on Instagram at the Go Earn Your Salt podcast, and perhaps we can have you on the show. Also, if you like this content, leave us a review, subscribe, and share with your friends, and perhaps this podcast can help you and them go earn your salt.