Jim Varney: [00:00:00] the R&D stuff was easy. Like, 'cause that was easy for me and I could do it on the weekends and I could just do it in my own head. It was kind of what you're talking about.
Like, it doesn't require you to, to, to sell, like the sales side of things. But I really had under... As a designer, I had way underappreciated the importance of, of good sales and, you know, salesmanship and just marketing and just understanding that that is a whole world that I had neglected and didn't really put any, you know...
Not that I didn't put any emphasis on it, but I was like, "Well, it'll take care of itself." Like, this whole idea of like, oh, you build a better mousetrap, right? And the world will, will beat a path to your door. Like, I don't know. I don't know about that. Maybe, you know, we, we see a couple examples where that does work, like a viral thing that goes crazy, but like those are like one in a million or billion, uh, of the entrepreneurs that, that succeed in that way.
All the other folks that are starting their own businesses have to work at it for years to build it up and make it something that's stable and [00:01:00] organically grown, right? Like, that's hard. That's the real hard work
Riley: Today, I've got Jim Varney with, uh, Wavelength Coffee Roasters out in Massachusetts, the great state of Massachusetts, almost, almost exactly opposite end of the United States from where I'm at in Idaho here. We're, uh, nearly as far apart as we could be.
Jim Varney: Yep
Riley: But, uh, Jim, Jim approached me about coming on the podcast, and they've, they've launched a new coffee brand, and they got some pretty special things they do that are... Well, we're gonna have him tell you about it. [00:02:00] So Jim, welcome to the show.
Jim Varney: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it
Riley: Yeah, man. So we'll talk about you. Tell us who you are, where you came from, what life was like as a kid
Jim Varney: Oh, wow. Yeah. Let's go way back. Uh, so like you mentioned, um, you know, we're in Massachusetts now. Uh, I, I sort of am born and raised, uh, New England person. I, I grew up in New Hampshire. Uh, I went to college in, uh, in New York State at Syracuse. After school, I came back to the Boston area, um, 'cause I went to school for...
I'm actually, uh, I went to art school basically. I'm a des- a designer, uh, at, at heart. So, um, you know, I loved making things. I loved art. Um, and industrial design was, like, the thing I loved. I just totally fell in love with it. And, um, Boston is actually one of the best places in the US, uh, for product design and development, like, uh, my industry, industrial design was when I got out of school.
So it was a natural fit. Came back here and, um, I've been living in Massachusetts [00:03:00] then ever since, since like, I think 1998. Uh, so I've been here for most of my life. Um, met my wife here and raised a family and everything. Uh, I spent 25-plus years in doing product design, uh, in that industry. Um, and was working my way up kinda through the company and became a co-owner.
I hit it off really well with the, the g- the guy who started the company, so he asked me to come on as a partner. Um, so in 2016 I came on. I was a, a co-owner of a company. Had, uh, so I had eight years experience in then running, helping to run and grow that company, which we did. Uh, he's a little bit older than me.
Um, so in 2024 we had an opportunity to sell the business and so he had a chance to retire, you know, which was great and, uh, but I, you know, wasn't quite ready to hang up my hat, so to speak. I can only play so much golf, uh, you know, in the summer. In the winter I'm sitting around like, "Well, what am I gonna do now?"
Um, and, you know, I was really ready to do something kinda different. [00:04:00] Um, and Where I had been going with my product design company was, uh, in the last several years, I was trying to find opportunities to bring sustainable design in. I really-- I've always loved the idea that, that designers are kind of, you know, sort of the forecasters, you know, that we're, we're helping to envision the future in a lot of ways, and I always loved that about trying to see where things are headed.
You know, we're having to adapt to various things in life or new technologies come up. How does that affect, you know, how we live? How do we, how do we interact with those things? So it's just kind of a natural fit then to go into sustainability 'cause in a lot of ways it's like trying to envision how we're all gonna be living together in the next hundred years, right?
Like, the world is changing so fast. How do we adapt to it? And, um, you know, I had some, some success with it, some failures. You know, like, it was always tough working with clients to kind of bring some of that stuff in because some people were really passionate about it, other ones weren't. Um, but so when I, when I left that company, I knew, though, in my heart that that was [00:05:00] something I really wanted to focus on, uh, but I just didn't know how.
And, um, my wife was also in a place in her, in her career in education where she was kind of ready to do something different. And so I think she suggested. She's like, "Well, you know, what about, what about doing something like coffee?" Like, what about doing something in coffee? We'd always loved it. Uh, I had been doing some home roasting for a while, you know, like a lot of folks do.
And, uh, so I started to fall down the rabbit hole and just did a lot of, you know, research into the coffee industry. There was that tech geeky side of me which really started to get interested in all the, all the technology that's, you know, involved and a lot of the new stuff coming out. But I also saw that there was an opportunity, uh, to do something different in the market and that we had, you know, at the ground level, at farm level all around the world, coffee is changing dramatically, and everybody understands that they're having to come up with new ways to grow coffee, to process coffee, new places to grow it, new varieties to grow.
Like, [00:06:00] it's, it's in this process of changing to, to match the changing climate that's around the farmers. Like, they can't avoid it because they can see it changing. But here, like in the US and in other, like, rich countries, like, especially coffee roasters, like we're kind of just sort of going through the motions and it felt like doing things that we'd always been doing the same way.
Um, so it seemed like there was a chance now for us to, like, that designer side of me to, to design then the roastery around something like a new way of doing things. Like, how can we bring the best technology we have now, like the best ideas and, and pair that with the best of what's going on out there in the field and make a new brand?
Like build something that's new out there that c- that people really respond to. Um, so that was kind of the genesis last year for Wavelength Coffee Roasters. That's how we started.
Riley: So you you come from this designing career. Expand on the im- the, uh, industrial design for me, just for listeners who don't understand, myself included in that.
Jim Varney: [00:07:00] Yeah.
Riley: what did you do exactly?
Jim Varney: Yeah, that's funny. Wha-- I know when I was, uh, younger and I would tell people I was an industrial designer, and they were like, "So You make factories, or you design factories and stuff?" And it's like, "Well, no." And it's a misleading name. And if you say product design now, everybody thinks you're designing like websites, and it's like, well, uh, no.
So really what, what industrial design is, is it's like helping to develop the physical products that people make. Like, everything that's in front of you or around you that's a physical object that a company sells or makes, um, it's been designed by somebody. And designers like myself, we help to not just make it look good, uh, which we do, but we would also, uh, figure out ways, you know, how, how do people interact with it?
You know, how does it... You know, it's called like ergonomics, so it's like making it fit the body, making it safe and comfortable to use, um, and all that kind of stuff. Like that's that was a side that designers would bring. Um, and we worked hand in hand with engineers. Like at my company, we, we had a lot of [00:08:00] engineers of course as well, and engineers are much more on the technical side of things and helping to figure out how to make things.
And so when you get designers and engineers together, we would then work with clients from all over the world with, you know, big and small. We had individual entrepreneurs, like folks who would come to us with just ideas that they, you know, were getting backing to help make into something real, all the way up to like huge multinationals or, you know, Fortune 500s that make, you know, big equipment or lots of, uh, consumer goods.
So we worked on all kinds of things all over the world, and I loved that variety, like always doing something different. Um, but it also means that like as a designer, I'm sort of a professional outsider. You know? Like never, uh... I'm sort of like a jack of all trades, master of none, you know? Like, got a chance to dabble in a lot of different things, uh, but you never really get like super, super deep in anything.
And I, and as a... Instead of that being a negative, I actually think it's a superpower. It's like a, a real, it's a real positive thing [00:09:00] because you come into every situation, every new client, every new project, or in this case a new business, with just open eyes. You're just like, you know, no preconceived notions.
Like, what, what can we do here? Like, you know, what's new? What's, what's called the white space? Like, the space around what everyone else has done. Like, where's the opportunity? Um, and so you take that same mentality that I had used for twenty-five years working with other people's projects, and I, I kind of applied that to, to designing a business, to like building this thing around us like from scratch because I also appreciated that like in working with, with clients, um, you know, a business has inertia.
You know, once it is kind of built in a certain way, it tends to kind of stay that direction. It's really hard, like I... And I was working with folks in sustainability. It was really hard to kind of shift people's companies in different directions if it wasn't built that way. So I wanted to make sure that when we designed Wavelength, um, that it, we were starting [00:10:00] from scratch with the right ingredients.
So that it could really be effective in how we wanted to do things
Riley: You know, that's an interesting thing, man, 'cause I, I know sometimes when you're up with a design at the beginning, maybe you have some parameters, but a lot of times there's just nothing to go on, right? You're just almost like, there's this blank slate, and sometimes blank slate's great, but sometimes blank slate is just that.
It's like,
Jim Varney: It,
Riley: know where to start here. So
Jim Varney: it, yeah
Riley: kind of a process did you have for that?
Jim Varney: Yeah, it's usually crippling. Uh, you know, like if you have nothing to go on, um, which is, uh, which is why we always kind of start with, you know, the design process would always kind of start with a, a brief, you know, some kind of information that you'd be given, right? And, and sometimes it's more than, you know, and sometimes it's less.
Uh, it's like you're right, sometimes you kind of have not a whole lot to go on, so you have to use your imagination and your creativity. you have to use like think about what, what this thing is like, you know, look for precedents, things that are out there in the world. Um, just like you do with anything [00:11:00] else, you look for like some kind of a grounding and, and then you find your own twist on it.
Like that was, honestly, like that was the part that I always loved the most about, um, about the design industry. Like I learned over the years like what my strengths and what my weaknesses were. Um, my strength was really I loved, I loved riffing on ideas. I loved coming up with, with new things and finding opportunities and like sort of the concept, that early concept stage where like everything is kind of new and exciting and you're seeing opportunities.
Like, man, I, I loved that You know, that was So much fun. Um, so I would lean into that and like really work with our clients and, and work with my team or whatever to, to add where I could. Um, and then I kind of found like that was kind of similar, the similar instincts like when we were looking at like coffee as a totally different industry for me.
I was like, "Well, where do you even start?" You know, like, what-- I'm so new to this. Um, you know, I'm not a coffee professional for years and years and years. Like I- it's been a couple [00:12:00] years now, but, you know, folks have been in this industry for decades, right? Like how c- who am I to come into this and tell them like, "Oh, this is like what you... want to do"?
It's like, well, but there's a, there's a power in being sort of the outsider, the objective person, right? Like say like, well, okay, there's a lot of new things that are kind of cropping up and there are some challenges with the way things are done now. Like what if we, what if we kind of built something that was different?
And, and I almost like I'm kind of maybe stupid enough to try those things because I don't, I wasn't trained to do them different way. Um, and, and you know, I, I think that my experience in just understanding how things kind of work and how they kind of connect, um, has helped me to maybe avoid some of the bigger pitfalls, um, and, and to kind of build a space and build a, build sort of a, a, a suite of technologies that we have here, um, that really complement each other and, and work well.
Riley: So do you... Give me an example of something that, that you did work on that was, was clean slate. [00:13:00] You know, something that you got kind of an idea of what the product was, but now you've gotta make it ergonomic or you've gotta, you know, some of those different things you've gotta consider when designing it
Jim Varney: That would often happen most in like, um, maybe a lot of the startup companies we'd work with, right? Like, so if they were invent- if they were coming, like, with a totally new technology or they were really like... You know, if they didn't have, um, you know, a lot of the clients we might work with that are established companies, they've got years of product history.
Like, well, you know, this is our product family of things we've done, and like, we're just making the next generation thing. Like, so you've got a lot of history to work with. But, like, with a new s- entrepreneur, you've got nothing to start with. You have like, how do you even do that? So, like, what we'd start with then is, like, instead of just diving right in maybe and, and thinking about what it could look like, is thinking about the context of that idea.
Like, well, okay, s- who's using this thing? You know, like w- and what are, what are they like? You know, you think about the users. You kind [00:14:00] of try to ground the whole thing in, in the process. You think about how this, whatever the product is, whether it's a medical device or whether it was like, you know, some consumer product, or it almost doesn't matter in a lot of ways like what industry it, it's in.
It's, you think about the context of its use. Like, how does it really fit into the world around it? And, and then that gives you a lot to work with because then you can start to see, like, if you are inventing a new use scenario, then you can be like, "Well, okay. Well, maybe if this is like a, a portable version of something that was never portable before," well, now it's like, well, okay, well, how do you walk around with this thing and how do you carry it and how are you gonna power it?
And like, does it have batteries? And like, so you start, it starts to ... You start asking questions about things like that, that then you start to understand, like, oh, I could make it look like this or like this. And so you start to discover in a lot of ways, like, the form that comes out of how you imagine it being used or interacted with.
So that's kind of, that, that's kind of the process at least that I would use internally [00:15:00] when I thought about... when I had, like, nothing else to go on.
Riley: Well, I can think of certain things. You mentioned portability, right? I can think of certain items I've used over the years where I'm carrying this thing around, and every time it swings and bumps against my leg, it tries to leave a mark, right? And I'm going, this could've been designed
Jim Varney: That could have been designed better. Yeah there's, there's definitely, the world is full of design mistakes, that's for sure.
Riley: Yeah, that's funny. So tell me this, did you have any notable ones over the years where you, you made a design mistake?
Jim Varney: Oh, man. Um, I, I did have a personal, like, um, and this is more of like an, this is more of like an existential sort of story. Like, but, um, one of the reasons why I think I started to, to be interested in doing something different after a long time was, um, we did a lot of work For a company to be unnamed, you know, uh, but they made a lot of like, um, vacuum cleaners and like [00:16:00] steam mops and like a lot of household like products, you know?
And, and super successful. We worked with them for a long time, and the work was great and everything. And, you know, as, as a designer, you always kinda have... There's a little bit of excitement you get when you see like something that you've worked on, like on a shelf. You walk in like into Lowe's or Home Depot or wherever, you know, and you're like, "Oh, hey, you know, I made that."
And you think like, "Oh, it's, it's really cool." Um, and I was... Then I was, um, I was at a, an art museum, uh, for a friend of mine's, uh, birthday, like celebration or whatever. And, and, uh, there was this installation by this artist where she had made these like large-scale sculptures, and it was like this comment on overconsumption and just like all the trash that we make as humans.
And they were kinda made to be grotesque looking, right? Like these sculptures. And smack right in the middle of one of them was this vacuum cleaner that I had designed like the year before.
Riley: Oh, crap.
Jim Varney: And I remember, and I remember like walking through the museum, and at first like I [00:17:00] was... My first reaction was like, "Oh, hey, I designed that."
Like, I was positive, but then I realized like, "Oh, wait," like, "Oh, I designed that." Like In
Riley: In the context, this
Jim Varney: the context, it was... It totally changed. It, it kind of flipped. Even though I was aware of obviously, you know, you're, you're not like unaware that things get thrown away, but it really kind of made it really visceral to me.
Um, and so that's where like it wasn't like I designed something that was like a failure in the market necessarily or had problems, but like that was a product that resonated with me in that negative way. Like, I realized like, okay, well, maybe I'm just sorta helping to perpetuate a system where we're all just like buying a lot of stuff and throwing it away, and maybe there's a better way to do things.
That was years before I eventually like sold the company and then thought about doing something different. So but it... So it planted a seed though, and it took several years to germinate. Um, but it was there, and that was definitely a formative thing for me, for sure.
Riley: You know, that's interesting 'cause [00:18:00] growing up, my father, he loved to buy just any kind of gadget he could get his hands on, right? But it was so often it was that cheap version of the thing, right?
When there... And, and I would watch it and, and I'd watch him replace it every few years and I'm like, "Man, you just buy the good one the first time?
You could..." And, and
Jim Varney: Yep.
Riley: my logic, right?
Jim Varney: Yeah
Riley: But his logic was, I like to buy the next one. It looks different and it's, uh, it's fresh. It's like a new thing to
have." And, and I couldn't really deny that either. I'm like, "Well, I guess I could see that." You buy the cheap couch or the cheap chair and it lasts you three years and then it's falling apart.
Well, then you get new furniture and it's cheap. So
Jim Varney: Yeah.
Riley: sides of that, man
Jim Varney: Hey, that's why, like, you know, leasing cars is, like, still super popular 'cause there's, like... It's something nice about having the new version right when it comes out 'cause it, it is better, right? Like, it's hard to argue against that. Like, it's a better version of what you had, and, and there's a whole design industry and a, and a manufacturing, [00:19:00] like, consumer culture that's built around that, right?
That it's... It definitely pushes that idea. Um, but you know, there's, like you're saying, it's, it's maybe not for everybody, but there's definitely a growing maybe presence and an understanding that there are options out there now. Like, you know, that you can, you know, you can do things differently.
Riley: Well, you know, you, you, you listen to, the old books and the, the value they placed on items like clothing, how much did an article of clothing cost? And it was significant. It wasn't... 'Cause that thing had to be weaved, and it had to be and it was all by hand. And
Jim Varney: No way
Riley: had a different representation of the labor it took to build something like that. And we don't even think about it, man. If we tear a hole in a T-shirt, we walk away like no big deal. It's
Jim Varney: Totally.
Riley: even a thought
Jim Varney: No, yeah, it's, that is a, that is a absolute truth. Like, you know, if you go back a couple generations, like if you like, or, or, you know, grandparents or folks that lived through tough [00:20:00] times or whatever, and, and you do get a totally different appreciation for, like, for the material stuff, like, 'cause it still has value.
Like to, you know, you can make it last for quite a while. Um, we do the... You know, we've, um, we've been experimenting with a new thing this summer, um, with, uh, takeaway cups, like to-go cups. Um, 'cause we do some farmers markets and stuff, you know, for our coffees where we serve, like, hot and ice cold. It's, you know, or, you know, ice coffee and c- and, and hot coffee.
And we have the traditional to-go stuff, like clear plastic things, and like their, you know, whatever things for, the, the paper things for hot coffee. But um, but we were like, "Well, is there any... Like, what, what's out there for new options?" Like, you know, how can we start to kind of address even that? 'Cause that's a sticky problem of, of like the s- the single-use plastics and takeaway stuff.
Like, it's hard to avoid. Like, if you go out to eat or go anywhere or do anything, like for sanitary reasons, there's a lot of reasons why it's there, right? I'm not denying that there's a, there's a function. But it's [00:21:00] just, it's a hard thing to solve. Um, but we found this company that makes, um... They're called Gaia Star, uh, and they, they've been making this, uh...
They invented this 3D printing technology. They make super, super thin clay cups. Um, it's like a terracotta. It looks like a little, like a little terracotta pot. Uh, but it's really, really thin. Um, it's pretty durable though, and it's made to use instead of a, of a plastic cup. So like, but we talk about, like, the, the view of material, right?
Like, I think it's fascinating that you've got this, like... If I have a plastic cup, and I've got this clay cup, and they have the same function and the same size or whatever, and like, and as far as the customer's concerned, it's basically the same. But when people see that clay cup, they react totally differently than they do to the plastic.
You know, the plastic, it's like, "Well, yeah, I just throw it away." Like, you don't even... You would never think about holding onto this plastic cup, even though you could hold onto it for like 100 years. You, you could make that, you could, you could give that to your grandchildren, right? Like, and it would still be a great plastic cup.
But we don't. We just throw it [00:22:00] away. But the clay cup, then it's like, it's made of a material that people assume needs to be taken care of and needs to be, like, kept, and people do. They, like, bring it back, and we want people to bring it back. We actually give them refills and stuff. But I think it's just by changing the material, same shape, same vessel, same function, it completely changes your worldview of like, "What do I do with this thing?"
And I think that's just fascinating. People are just amazing.
Riley: No, it's, it is, that is true 'cause, uh, yeah, you, you consider a paper cut versus, say, a stainless steel, right? It's the same way, man. The way you treat a stainless steel is totally different.
Jim Varney: Yeah, absolutely
Riley: Yeah. uh... Yeah. That's interesting stuff. So, so listen, you, you come to the end of your design career, and you decide you're gonna pivot here, and pivoting is something I always like to talk about because that comes with a lot of considerations, right?
Jim Varney: And now
Riley: It's not just, "Oh, I'm just gonna go start a coffee company." There's a lot more thought goes invol- or goes into it to, uh, to make this transition. So [00:23:00] of those things happens to be this financial dip that happens at the beginning, right? You've gotta be able to weather that storm, and so what did you guys do to prepare yourselves for that, that transition?
[00:24:00]
Jim Varney: Yeah, that's a really good point, and that was something that, um, like in-- I was really glad in my experience working in the con-in the consulting world, like in design, right? I-- because I had a chance to work with a lot of entrepreneurs, I saw examples of when that worked and also a lot of examples when it didn't, like when it failed, like when those people, they couldn't make it work.
Um, and not that I had it all figured out, but I definitely had at least that like memory bank of like, "Okay, here's several examples." Um, so that kind of gave me a better sense of like what to expect when we started this. Like, I didn't come into it thinking like, "All right, day one, like we're gonna start making money.
We're just gonna make piles of cash, you know. I'm just gonna set them aside, and we're gonna be good to go." I was like, "Look, you know, it's gonna be, you know, until..." And my wife had never started a company before, and, you know, and I've, I've had a chance to run and start a couple or whatever. [00:25:00] And so this was a totally new experience for her, so I had to like mitigate expectations to be like, "Look, when we get started, like it's gonna be a while.
Like expect at least a year. Like the first year is just us like trying things. Like we're just gonna experiment with the business and with our customers and like just see what happens. Don't have any expectation about like having, you know, being able to do this." So like we were fortunate enough to be able to have like saved up some money to, to, to start.
Like, so we kinda had a... We had that buffer, which you kinda ha- You need to have that, right? You know, you can't just... You can't be expecting to make your, your bills, like payments off the revenue of your business you just started that day. Like it's not gonna happen. Um, so we at least had, we had a, a baseline of expectations.
Um, but It was also like, um, you know, we, we had done a lot of homework. Uh, it was like a year of background work before we ever opened our door. I think it was more [00:26:00] than a year, actually. It was like a y- almost a year and a half of, like, just doing stuff, like researching and talking to people in the industry.
And, like, I was roasting at home. I bought a little roaster, and I was roasting, like, nonstop in my basement for, like, a year and just trying things and experimenting with things and talk-- you know, going and visiting the manufacturers of the coffee roasters to, like, talk to them and see if... So, like, it wasn't, like, just diving in from nothing.
Like, we, we-- There was a lot of that behind-the-scenes stuff that we did before we ever opened our doors. So I think just learning as much as we could, especially since, um, you know, the risk was pretty high for us because we weren't in this industry. We didn't have connections we could pull from immediately.
Like, you know, if we had left one coffee company and decided to start our own, we could maybe leverage some of those connections, right, to start selling, you know, right away. We knew that we were gonna have to start just making new connections from day one, and, like, we were like, "Okay, let's just [00:27:00] prepare ourselves.
Like, let's do our homework." Um, but also another part of that is, like, well, how do you make something that is gonna stand out, right? How, how are you then on day one when you are trying to get those customers, how do you make sure that people are gonna find you, that they're gonna be interested? Like, give yourself a fighting chance.
If you're gonna basically be s- just like everybody else, then standing out's gonna be really hard, and, and you're gonna make that first year or two even tougher to basically... So, like, we also made choices, not just in, like... We, you know, all, everything we're doing i-is, fits our whole ethos of, like, what we're trying to do, but we also were like, "Well, let's try to differentiate ourselves.
Like, let's make some considered risks to try different packaging, to try different roasting, to, like, do these things differently and get out there so that we stand out and then give ourselves that extra fighting chance." So, like, you, you kind of, like, admit that, all right, we're gonna have some challenges, but, like, let's give ourselves the best opportunities we [00:28:00] can to make that work as fast as we can.
So that, that was the best op-- That was the best advice I could give myself, I guess.
Riley: Well, and that, that's, that's wise because you're talking about an industry where, freak, man, coffee is about as competitive as it gets, There's, there's a coffee shop on every corner. There's coffee roasters on every other corner.
It's, it is that way, right? It's super competitive. And so what did you guys do?
Jim Varney: Well, we, um, we decided to pick like a, like a three-pronged approach. We were like, we kind of, we kind of saw like three main aspects of, of the business that we were going to tackle in a different way, and then the combination of those three things, as far as I can tell, like either hasn't really been done or it hasn't been done very much.
Um, so one was like the sourcing side, like, you know, where we get our beans from or where we get our coffee from, right? Um- It seemed like in the work that I was doing and, like, researching what's been [00:29:00] going on around the world, like with co- with adaptation and everything, there was a lot of really amazing stuff going on that I just loved learning about.
I was like, "Wow, this is incredible." And, and talking to some of those people and, and it was really inspirational what a lot of the folks are doing, whether it's, you know, agroforestry or it's like, you know, helping, um, you know, educate women and get women more into coffee ownership or get... helping poor people, like, up, you know, raise themselves up out of poverty.
There was just a lot of, like, beyond just great coffee, there was a lot of really great stories. And when you walk down the shelf, I felt like you might see fair trade or you might see organic, but you didn't see a lot of anything else as far as, like, learning what your coffee is all about. And I was like, "I think there's a huge opportunity for folks like me who love coffee but also, like, just love hearing about where it comes from and, like, How it's done.
I think we could tell those stories better." And so we, we invented kind of like these, we call them pillars, like these five different pillars that we group all of our [00:30:00] coffee and sourcing in. Um, and so, like, that was one aspect of, like, let's tell the story about where the coffee's coming from really well.
Um, the other side of it was more on the roasting side, like the business, our own operations, and that was roasting. Um, it's pretty evident, like 99-plus percent of all coffee that's even made today, it's roasted with gas. Like, it's, it's basically natural gas, methane. Um, it's, uh, it's usually done with, um, what's called a, a drum roaster.
So it is like a big horizontal rotating drum. It's a big steel drum on the inside of this machine, and that's heated really scorching hot with a bunch of open flames, gas burners u- underneath it. And that's, that's pretty much 1850s technology. Like, it's been, like, unchanged more or less for about 150 years, literally.
It's like the same stuff. And I was like, you know, as a designer, like as a tech guy, I was like, "Man, there's gotta be, like, new stuff coming out, right? There has to be a better way to do this." And there is. Like, there, there's not a lot of them, but there are, like, a new [00:31:00] emerging crop of these, uh, all-electric roasters that are coming out.
Uh, some of them are kind of the same format, but there's also, like, people experimenting with different formats of roasters, and one of them is, like, these air roasters. Um, and I was like, "Wow, that looks amazing." Um, it's super efficient. Uh, it gets away from any of the gas, uh, which is problematic for various reasons.
Um, it's not only just a greenhouse gas, but it also is really harmful to the people who work in roasteries, like the open flames. Like, there's a reason why you don't... you're not supposed to use your gas grill, like, inside your house. Uh, the, the emissions, uh, are really bad for you, Um, so same kind of deal.
Um- So it gets rid of all those issues, but it also makes like a really smooth, like clean co- like the coffee you get from the Air Roaster is-- We just love the quality of it. We're like, "This is just really amazing, superior coffee." It's awesome that you have this new technology then that also makes a superior version of it.
So that was
Riley: does the air roaster work? Describe that to me
Jim Varney: [00:32:00] So the air roaster we're using, So it is um, it's, it's, uh, from a company called Air Motion Roasters. They actually are based in South Africa. Uh, they're a pretty new company, been around maybe, I guess, like five years or so. Um, but it works like a giant popcorn popper. Like, it literally is, like, it's, it's this...
The roasting chamber is this vertical column of hot air, and it's an open chamber, so, like, normally when it's roasting, it's sitting underneath, like, kind of a big duct that sucks up all of the stuff that comes off the roasting, you know, moisture and chaff and dust and all that kind of stuff. Um, but it is, like, an open chamber, so I can actually, at the end of a roast day, I pull it out and I can clean out the inside.
It's a stainless steel, um, you know, cooking area. And so it's like, it's like, um, it's more akin to, like, uh, like doing home roa- or brewing a beer or, or like a, like the stainless steel vessels when you're, you're doing that kind of thing. Like, it's, it's super sanitary, super clean. Uh, you don't get any buildup of stuff.
Um, but it is, like, literally, it's [00:33:00] just hot air that's actually agitating and roasting the beans, so you get
Riley: up like in levels, like a dehydrator maybe? Like a
Jim Varney: it's, it actually is Like it, it's, it is like literally like a, a popcorn popper. Like if ... You, 'cause you can roast coffee in a popcorn popper, and it actually comes out great. Um, it's like just the hot air forces all the beans to kind of jump and dance around.
Like, and
Riley: Oh, okay.
Jim Varney: it's like the
Riley: blowing around in there
Jim Varney: it's all blowing around in there It's this k- it almost looks like a tornado. Like, all of the beans are jumping around inside, and it's being roasted with more of, uh, it's more convection. So like it's the hot air from all sides of each coffee bean are, are like roasting, so it's super even.
As opposed to like a drum... A drum roaster does some of that, but It's a lot of conduction cooking as well. Like it's, it's like, uh, sitting on a frying pan almost. Like,
Riley: a hot surface,
Jim Varney: when it's touching that hot surface is, is also when it's doing a lot of cooking, and you don't really have that as much in an air roaster.
So it's, the product you get is, is, because of that, is, um, very even. It's, [00:34:00] um, and because you're not... Like with a drum roaster also, you never can really get inside and clean it. It's, it's really, most of them, it's y- it's almost, it's impossible to get in the inside. So over the years that you use it, like it does kind of build up a surface of, of stuff.
And so actually over decades, you can be tasting more of like what the machine tastes like and less about like what the, what the bean is. Um, and so one of the advantages we found with this air roasting is like it really lets the origin, like the, the taste of like where you're getting this coffee from, it really lets that shine through in a really clear way.
Um, but so that was the second, like the roasting was kind of the, all this new roasting technology was a, was one big thing we were going at. And then there was the packaging was the third, the third item, uh, that we wanted to do differently. Um, I'd always found that like the c- the ubiquitous coffee bags, like you buy coffee out there, like it's all, almost all of it's in bags, right?
Um, but the, the doing something with the bags, like the materials that they're made of, even if they say they're... a lot of the eco like [00:35:00] options say that they're biodegradable or compostable or even recyclable, you know, the plastic ones. And the truth is that unfortunately almost all of it ends up in the, in the landfill or it gets burned, um, or it gets like shipped to another country and then burned.
Uh, so it's, it's really not really being turned into Anything, good. Uh, and so we looked at steel, 'cause steel cans, it, you know, you can still get Folgers and, you know, Chock full o' Nuts or whatever, like, you know, the old way that my grandparents, you know, bought coffee. Turns out in a lot of ways it's kind of better.
Um, you know, you talk about how maybe older generations would revere certain materials a lot more and be careful with things. Well, as it turns out, steel is, it's a great barrier for keeping moisture and light out. Um, so it keeps the beans fresher for longer when they're inside. Um, and it's also 100% recyclable and totally circular.
Um, which means that once it's recycled, you can use steel again to make anything. You know, you could u- you could make, uh, body [00:36:00] implants with it. You could make an airplane. You can make more cans. Steel is like the most amazing circular material that humans have ever inc- uh, have ever made. And something like over 97% of all the steel ever made by people is still in circulation because it's so easy to actually keep out.
It's magnetic. You can keep it out of the, out of the trash. Um, so it's just, it's as a material, it made a lot of sense. And we buy the cans, um, from a company here in the US that, that makes their steel from US recycled steel. So it's like we keep that loop as short as we can, and we try to keep like, you know, all the business, you know...
We do, we do everything where it makes sense, right? To keep everything as local as we possibly can.
Riley: When you're, when you're talking about, know, choosing-- One of the things that's on your website, you were, you were talking about the bags that the coffee comes to you in.
Jim Varney: Yeah
Riley: something like 100 pounds or 130 pounds, can't remember what it said on there, but it was-- said it looks like a, a, uh, [00:37:00] burlap bag, but it's inside it's still plastic, and you, you
Jim Varney: Yeah
Riley: And it, and it sounds like it, uh, just the tone that, that, that was written in was like, "Well, crap, man. It'd be great if it wasn't," but that's, that's the facts of it, right?
Jim Varney: That's just the facts of it. I mean, like, plastic is a great material. It's, it is an, it's a miracle material, and it's amazing for doing certain things. Like, and you can't really get away from it in a lot of cases. Like, and that's where when they're shipping, um, the unroasted coffee from wherever it comes from, you know, whether it's Brazil or Costa Rica or Tanzania or wherever in the world, um, yeah, the outside is that, that burlap sack, but on the inside, most of the time, uh, it's a plastic bag.
And that plastic bag, though, keeps, you know, it keeps bugs out. You don't want, like, things get in there or rats or whatever. So it's a hermetic seal to keep pests out, but it also keeps moisture out. Uh, and it also keeps moisture in because it's super critical that the coffee before it's roasted stays within a certain, [00:38:00] uh, moisture content range.
Riley: Mm-hmm.
Jim Varney: If it gets too dry or too wet, like both of those are not good. It wants to stay... If it stays in a, in a happy zone, then it basically stays sel- shelf stable for a real long time, like for over a year, um, well over a year. And So yeah, it's like that was one of the things we, you know, maybe you don't realize outside of the industry.
It's like, well, okay, you get-- it, it looks like that quaint, like, printed bag, and the ba- and the, the, the burlap sacks look super cool, but on the inside it's a plastic bag. Um-
Riley: do they even bother with the burlap? Is it just for
Jim Varney: That's a good que- that's a good question. I think it's branding for a lot of poi. You know, I think, like, it's also kinda easier to hold onto.
The plastic bags are kinda slippery, and I think, you know, you see, like, at the warehouses and folks when they're moving things around, a lot of it is manual. They're all, like, when they're loading up sacks and everything. The... So the burlap is definitely easier to hold onto, for sure. But I think in some cases it is sort of just like, well, that's the way they've always done it, so they just keep doing it, you know?
You know? So it's kinda s- kinda funny.
Riley: added the plastic
Jim Varney: Even though [00:39:00] they've added the plastic bags.
Riley: let's, keep it burlap. It, it
Jim Varney: Yeah. Yeah. It just looks cool. Yeah
Riley: I love it. I love it, man. Okay, so as you're making this transition, man, from career to coffee, we mentioned the, the financial preparations and that, but relationally with your spouse, so you and your wife are both involved in this thing,
Jim Varney: Yeah
Riley: did those conversations go when it's like, "Hey, you wanna our jobs and go do this new, new venture?"
What, what did that look like?
Jim Varney: Yeah, I know. Some people thought I was crazy, you know? Uh, like, "Really? You, uh, you're going into business with your wife?" And it's like, "Well, you know, yeah." Um, and now I must admit, I think, you know, you, you've gotta have a good relationship or else, like, when you're working together, like, you will expose that pretty ba- pretty quickly.
You know, if, if there are some issues there, like, those'll come out real fast. Um, and I think, you know, every good relationship, you know, every s- every couple out there, like, you know. You know your hot buttons, you know, you know the things that bother [00:40:00] each other. Um, and I think, like You just learn, um, as we go into this, like, we're like, look we had never worked together before.
She had never really seen me in sort of a professional environment, but I had been, you know, doing this for like? 25 years or whatever, and I had told her like, "Look, look, I'm, I'm gonna be business Jim, like, when I'm at work. Um, but if, if I'm like too much or if I'm saying stuff I shouldn't be, just, you know, let me know, basically.
You know, we, we gotta be honest with each other." But also when we're in business mode, you kinda have to wear a different hat in a lot of ways. Like, you have to be, you have to be... You have to make sure, I guess, that you would talk to your spouse just like you would more or less like another coworker, right?
Like, 'cause you talk to your coworkers, like, when you're in the heat of business, like, you're, you're just very direct, very quick. You're like, "Okay, if you've got something to do, like, let's just..." You just gotta get it done sometimes. And with your spouse or whatever, like, sometimes like, "Look, I'm not trying to be mean, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but like, look, we gotta get this done."
Or like, or, "You didn't do that right." Or [00:41:00] like, "Oops, I made a mistake." Like, I think, um, we've learned over the last several months, like, where those boundaries lie, um, of... And I've... It's honestly mostly on me. She is a sweetheart and she is the nicest person. Um, it's more about me when I'm like being like too regimented or too strict or whatever.
She's like, "Look, you know, take it easy." And I'm like, "Oh, okay." So I had to learn that. But I think it's also, um, defining your roles, I think. So there's the p- there's, you know, the part I was just talking about, which is more about just like learning how to work together, but there's also like it's really important for each person to have things that are sort of their own, right?
Like, this is y- this is my purview, this is yours. Um, not that we don't ever share, but like, I'm in charge of this and you're in charge of that. And then there are things that we collaborate on that are sort of in the middle, and super important to have those like pretty well defined so that you're not like stepping on toes or taking like, you [00:42:00] know, too much ownership because we're 50/50 partners in this business.
And if one of us isn't feeling like they're getting 50% of the responsibility or the say, that's a problem. You know, you've gotta make sure that it's equal. And, and so with me, like, I do a lot of this stuff, you know, she... Which she's totally fine with. She's not really, you know, crazy about the interview stuff.
Um, and I do a lot of the writing and, you know, the, the marketing stuff. Um, but she honestly takes care of a lot of the social media. She does all of the business management side of things, so like all the money management All the client relations, you know, customer relations, which I'm super thankful for because, like I said, she's so much better at that stuff than I am.
And like, so we sort of naturally knew where we were gonna go, and it's been awesome actually to see th- that, you know, and even just in the eight months, like that she's been really, I think, just excelling in like running a business in a way that she's never had that opportunity before. [00:43:00] And she was like really, I think, really nervous about it.
But like, it just some... It- I think it just comes naturally. She's like ... And she holds me to task, you know? Like, and that's what I wanted. I wanna make, you know, if you give, give... If, if I'm in charge, I'll just start like spending money on things and buying stuff, and she's like, "Whoa, no. Hey, wait, wait." You know, "That's not in the bud- Let's
Riley: down
Jim Varney: go back.
Yeah, Slow down mister." Like, it's like... So it's, you gotta have that partnership, you gotta have that balance. But I think, again, like it's really important for everybody to have roles that they can really lean into and own. Um, and so far, you know, knock, knock on wood, like so far it's been working out really great.
Riley: Yeah, that's, that's a challenging thing, right? I, I was just in an episode that I, previous to yours that I was recording, was talking to the gentleman about that, and he, they own a family business, and there was that conversation about how do you separate those roles, right? Because you don't want... I, I feel like if two people are in charge of the same thing, they're both just gonna blame the other one when it goes wrong.
Jim Varney: Yeah
Riley: to be that accountability, that, that one person in charge of that [00:44:00] one thing, and do you guys have those roles written out at all in, inside the company?
Jim Varney: Maybe not, maybe not written out per se. Although actually, I think in some level we actually do, 'cause like there's sometimes like when you're creating sort of business charters and things like that, you do kind of, you assign roles to each person. Um, honestly, like at, in, in our household, um, Deanna is, she also controls the purse strings, so it was like a natural fit.
Like, okay, you know, going from the home environment where you're in charge of the money, like that's how, that's what you're gonna be doing in the business, too. Like, and so it was something she also felt comfortable in, in sort of naturally going into. Um, so she was always kind of thought of being like, "Well, you're gonna be the, the business manager."
And because my, my knowledge and background in sort of the more the technical side of things and the design engineering stuff, like I just naturally gravitated to more of the process side of stuff. So like all the roasting, you know, the, the ordering and, um, the [00:45:00] designing of the space, like ordering of the coffee, so sourcing the coffee, making sure all the inventory management stuff's there.
I got all the spreadsheets of everything, all right. So like that stuff I love and like I totally gravitate towards, so like we didn't even have to debate about like who, who took those roles. It's more about the stuff that's in between that's been a... Sometimes is more of a challenge, like the, like the media stuff, you know, and the outreach or like, well, how do we talk about our company? you know?
And when we go to, go to like, uh, presentations or things, like who says what and what do we s- you know, how do we actually share that or... You know, we've learned a lot about that stuff, um, and, and what works and what doesn't, and certain environments of when it makes more sense. So yeah, again, I think, um, you're totally right.
Uh, you know, she doesn't try to tell me how to do the roasting. At the same time, we share. Like I'll, I'll bring like, "Hey, I'm, I'm struggling with this like coffee. Like where does it... Which one do you like better? Let's do a cupping. Let's try this or that." So there's a lot of collaboration. In the same way on the business side of things, there's [00:46:00] nothing that either one of us doing, is doing that we don't share with each other or bounce back and forth.
But yeah, in the end, like we know who's ultimately responsible for each side, and that's super key
Riley: Yeah, I think, I think that's really important to have those lines, um, you know, drawn out because I, I do see that happen where... I can think of a company I owned 20 years ago, and it was that way. It was like, we, we... Down to the vehicles, right, we had drivers of trucks, if we let them share the truck, every new dent that showed up was blamed on the next
Jim Varney: You did that. You did that
Riley: him. He, he must have did it. It wasn't me." And, and then I had no way to know either, so
Jim Varney: Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah
Riley: Um, talk about this, man. So you s- you started, last October's when you guys officially launched,
Jim Varney: Yep
Riley: and we dis- we, we through it a little bit, but the, the competitiveness of the coffee world
is... I honestly, I almost can't think of something that would be more highly [00:47:00] competitive than that, right? You went into probably, it's gotta be top five of the most competitive industries on the planet. And
Jim Varney: I know
Riley: are, you're out there marketing, okay? So have you guys found... first of all, what things have you done to really promote your company?
Jim Varney: So yeah, you, you make a really good point. Then when you say it that way, I'm like, "Yeah, why did I start this company and coffee?" And that's a really good point. No, 'cause
Riley: I went into electrolytes. Are you kidding?
Jim Varney: I...
Riley: supplement industry. I
Jim Varney: Seriously, Yeah,
Riley: number
Jim Varney: competitive at all, right? Yeah.
Riley: no,
[00:48:00]
Jim Varney: I mean, coffee is ... So yeah, just to highlight your point, [00:49:00] coffee is the, the most consumed beverage on Earth after water.
So it's like, yeah, it is everywhere. Um, and yeah, it is kind of crazy. But, um, so we leaned in. We knew like, we knew from the start, like we didn't wanna do necessarily a cafe, like to start with. Um, I had worked in a cafe before. I had done some food service work in the past, and I, I knew I, I loved it, but I also appreciated how hard it was.
And we're like, "Look, as our first like venture together, I don't know if I wanna dive like right into the deep end," you know? Like that's, that's super hard. Coffee roasting seemed like a better way for us to get in and make an, make an impact and, and own more of the process, um, without ... But there's a downside to that.
Like cafes give you an automatic way to get your product out to people, right? Like that's, that's ... It's a pretty easy way to like, "Hey, we're opening up a cafe. People need coffee. They come in the door." At least you've got a revenue stream. With roasting now you have to sell people [00:50:00] online, or you've gotta, you know, find stores that will s- you know, resell your product.
So there's like the reselling thing, and then you've gotta find, you know, wholesalers or folks that will buy your beans and, and th- and actually roast them for their customers, whether it's, you know, cafes or restaurants, that sort of thing. And so it's understanding like, well, okay, what are those, what are those channels now?
What are those retail channels that we have open to us, and w- how do we start getting out there? So like we, we've done a few things. Like, um, being ... Even though we're not a cafe, being a part of our community and being active in our c- our local community was really important to us from the start. Um, so the space that we have here, we've got about 5,000 square feet.
It's pretty big. Um, it's an old mill complex here, um, in, in the Massachusetts area. And, and we love the space because it, it gives us room to grow, but it also gives us room to host like events and groups. So we have ... Like from the start, we've had people come out, come reach out to us who were like, "Hey, [00:51:00] can we come and visit you?
Can we bring our..." Like we've worked with some, um, some colleges and universities and things like, "Hey, can we bring the students out and do like a tour and see your place?" And then we do like a custom tasting, and then we would start to do custom blends for the school because the kids wanted to sell it at their cafe that they were operating out of.
So like it kind of naturally started to ... We, we didn't plan on it necessarily, but it was a thing that naturally happened with the space we had here. We're like, "Okay, this is an opportunity for us to, to start to get out there." Um, and so we're leaning more into that and actually promoting that side of the business of like doing events, hosting businesses.
Um, and that's something that a lot of other roasters can't do because you may not have the space for it. Um, so, but we're also, uh, h- you know, as, as involved as we can online, like with, um, with socials especially, mostly with Instagram And some Facebook stuff. Um, but you know, we're, we're staying active in that to basically try to promote more like our, uh, the retail channel through [00:52:00] our website.
We have all of our products that we sell, um, online, uh, and we'll ship, you know, anywhere in the US. So that, there's that part of the business, too. I'm just trying to keep that word out. But the local scene, I think, whether it's the hosting events, but also all of the, um... There's farmer's markets, there's all kinds of other sort of festivals and things around, that we're doing as much of that as we can because getting out in front of people is, like, our best sales tool.
Like, you know, we can-- We've done, you know... And we've even paid for some stuff doing like, uh, you know, marketing and things like that on, uh, Instagram and Facebook. And, you know, it, it turns maybe a little bit of heads, you know, but I think it's more about just keeping our... That's just keeping sort of like an image up of like, "Hey, this is kind of what's going on."
It's more entertainment almost, or like a, I don't wanna make it sound bad, but like a fan club, if you will. Like, people who follow and wanna see that we're doing what we're doing. But it's not really, like, a revenue generator necessarily. It's more about like, "Hey, here's what's going on." What's actually getting, [00:53:00] like, people in the door and, and business to happen is the, is the personal outreach, is actually getting in front of real people in our community at events, at shows, at, you know, different festivals.
Uh, reaching out to businesses and actually coming to them and saying, "Hey, you know, would you like to carry our coffee? We'll give you some samples. Is there anything we can do to help you out?" That, that has actually turned into how we, how we generate more business. Um, so again, it's been a learning process, but I think, um, that's one of my big takeaways was, like, how I appreciated how, how important it was to show up for your local community and just to get out in front of people.
There's gonna be a limit to that, obviously. There's only two of us, and there's only so many shows you can do, right? Um, but, but I think, like, that helps to build that ground base, you know, that, that, that certain customer base that you can then, you can then leverage that to grow beyond. Um, so, you know, it's only eight months in, and, and we're starting to see some traction with some of that.
You know, we-we're, we're starting to see some folks, um, some restaurants and things like in the Boston area who are starting to pick [00:54:00] up our coffees. So we're absolutely thankful for that and really excited about where that can go. Um, but Yeah it wouldn't happen without us really just approaching people and getting out in front of them, so
Riley: Mm-hmm.
Jim Varney: enough about that.
Riley: Yeah, it's, it's interesting, man, because I think a lot of times, especially in the beginning of, of business ventures, when someone's new it, to marketing, wanna avoid those things 'cause it's difficult. You gotta put yourself out there. You gotta deal with the rejection. You've gotta, you know, there's all these things that happen that are emotional, man, and I,
Jim Varney: Oh, yeah
Riley: I, am curious how you guys...
'Cause you, you both came from jobs, right? It was, you, it's not quite the same when you're working for someone else versus when this is now your baby, and you have to put yourself out there for real, and man, some people, once in a while, they, they, they wanna, I don't know what they're thinking, but they'll tell you straight if they don't like something you've done.
Jim Varney: There is, yeah. There, there are like certain people that are just like, you know, "Hey, I, I don't like that." And you're like, "Okay." You know? I, I appreciate that. [00:55:00] There's some different things for everybody. But you know, it's funny, like my wife is, um ... You know, I'm, I'm the emotional one. You know, I, I wear my heart on my sleeve.
And, and so for me, I'm the one that like will take the rejection like the hardest, you know? Like, "Ugh, it'll be, that'll be hard." But she is, she, she comes from education, is like, um, her s-
Riley: yeah.
Jim Varney: she was in most recently. And that like, I mean, that'll beat you up. I mean, not that she's like steel, but like she's, she's more unafraid to just like walk up to somebody and just start talking about what we're up to, and just telling them, like just more the cold like talk to somebody.
And for me, that gives me like ... I, in this kind of environment, when we're like sitting down and talking about something, like I'll talk forever, and I'm super comfortable. But when it comes to like if you put me in a cocktail party and I gotta like make small talk with people that I've never met before, like that's hard for me, like.
But she'll just like, just goes right out there and just starts talking to people. And you know, that's awesome 'cause we've had more, uh, you know, that [00:56:00] ice-breaking, uh, ability, um, and that like not fear of rejection, right? Like 'cause I'll, I'll avoid some of those like interactions and be like, "Oh, I don't know," like, "What if it doesn't work out?"
And she'd be like, "Well, but what if it does?" You know? Like, you gotta put yourself out there. And, and I think maybe that comes from her background or just her personality, but that has been absolutely crucial for us to make some of these connections 'cause some of those times when I've avoided it, and it's turned into something for real, like that she has kind of pursued, and I wouldn't have done it if it wasn't for her.
So you, you kinda have to get out there and be unafraid and be willing to take that risk. And that's where like if it was just me on my own, I, I probably wouldn't have done it. But having that partner, and whether it's a business partner or your life partner that happens to be a business partner, too, like but having that like somebody else there with you to help you kind of bolster you up or get you through those moments, it's important.
It really is
Riley: Yeah, that's an interesting thing, man, 'cause I- you've probably heard it before, but you, you miss 100% of the, [00:57:00] the shots you don't take.
Jim Varney: Yep. Yep. Yeah
Riley: logical to get yourself in front of more people. But you're right, it's hard. It's sometimes it's like, man, I don't feel like that today
Jim Varney: You just don't, Yeah. you just don't feel, "I don't know if I could deal with another rejection," or, "What if they don't wanna talk to me?" And I don't know. It's, it's, it doesn't make any sense from a business standpoint, but it is like it's in your head, right?
Riley: Yeah.
Jim Varney: yeah, silly
Riley: Every startup deals with it, and I think it's, it's an underrated, uh, what you call it? underrated on how much it affects you, right? And, and it's one of those obstacles. Like, creating a product was easy, right? It's... It was work, but there was n- you were never nervous about it. You just did it, and you just kept doing repetitions of it until you got it down to where you, we liked it. It's very mechanical,
Jim Varney: Yes
Riley: But it's not that person-to-person rejection and, and that, that can be difficult, man
Jim Varney: I, um, so previous, in my previous life, like when I was, uh, running the, the design company, my, my business partner at the [00:58:00] time and I, um, we s- we tried a couple spinoffs. Like, we tried to do like a, like a little side project, and one of them was, um, was a golf putter. Uh, 'cause I was, I'm an avid golfer and, and so we came up with this idea for a new kind of golf putter.
And like the, the... You're right, like the coming up with the idea and the making of it, like all that was in my wheelhouse. Like, that was easy. Like, but it was almost like it's super naive now that I look back on it. That was, that was a good experience that the project failed, right, in a way. 'Cause we basically started a company, we got, we got a patent, we tried to get it out in the world, and I realized that you can make the best product you want.
If you don't know how to sell it or if you can't, or if you don't have the stomach for getting it out there or the time to invest in getting it out there, it's gonna go nowhere. Like, it... That is a full-time job and, you know, plus some to just do the marketing, to just get it out in the world. And I realized that, [00:59:00] like, I just didn't have the time, the stomach you know, all the other...
I didn't have it. That wasn't who I... I couldn't do it. Um, and that was probably the best thing that ever happened was that that didn't work out because now when I came into this, I realized, like, all the mistakes I had made and I wasn't gonna, I was gonna try to avoid those as best I could. And one of those was, like, you have to be fully committed to what you're doing.
Like, the side hustle thing, at least in that sense for me, like, I couldn't make it work because my full-time gig just required so much of my effort. You can't sort of on the side start to try to b- you know, launch your own company and somehow make both of them work. Um, one of them's gonna suffer, right?
And with this, and with Wavelength, like, I knew, like, this was gonna be what we do, so we're gonna go all in, and this is, you know, this is what I'm devoting my life to now 'cause we're gonna make it work
Riley: Yeah, that, I love that you brought up the side hustle, man, 'cause I think people think they're gonna, you know, on two or three hours a [01:00:00] week they're gonna build a new thing, and I'm like, "You're just not. sorry. It's, it takes way more than that." I- You vastly underestimate what it takes, of energy burn it takes to launch something, you know?
Jim Varney: Absolutely
Riley: akin to rocket science, right? Most of the fuel's burned in the first 10 seconds, you know? It's
Jim Varney: Yeah.
Riley: it off the ground
Jim Varney: Yeah I mean, and I think back to my experience with, with like that, you know, that putter company was like, you know, spending a year or more and, and just ... And the R&D stuff was easy. Like, 'cause that was easy for me and I could do it on the weekends and I could just do it in my own head. It was kind of what you're talking about.
Like, it doesn't require you to, to, to sell, like the sales side of things. But I really had under... As a designer, I had way underappreciated the importance of, of good sales and, you know, salesmanship and just marketing and just understanding that that is a whole world that I had neglected and didn't really put any, you know...
Not that I didn't put any emphasis on it, but I was like, "Well, it'll take care of itself." Like, [01:01:00] this whole idea of like, oh, you build a better mousetrap, right? And the world will, will beat a path to your door. Like, I don't know. I don't know about that. Maybe, you know, we, we see a couple examples where that does work, like a viral thing that goes crazy, but like those are like one in a million or billion, uh, of the entrepreneurs that, that succeed in that way.
All the other folks that are starting their own businesses have to work at it for years to build it up and make it something that's stable and organically grown, right? Like, that's hard. That's the real hard work
Riley: Yeah, I, I, after, after starting this venture, when you hear that term, it's just gonna sell itself. How do you feel about that?
Jim Varney: Yeah No, nothing sells itself, I don't think. You know, people can sell ... You know, like, if you've got, um ... You know, there are certain personalities that can just kind of, you know, are serial entrepreneurs that whatever they do, like, just, you know, happens because they're, you know, they're so good at it. But I think, like, you've [01:02:00] really gotta make a case for your product in whatever it is, and you've gotta be able to understand what people are looking for, what's important to them, and, and be able to appeal to that.
Um, and if you can, you know, hit them ... You know, if you can sort of appeal to people's sensibilities, but also just their, their visceral, like, needs. You know, like with coffee, right? For instance, right? You know, it was ... Even though we are really focused on sustainability and trying to, you know, really highlight the stories and all that stuff, and it's super important to me, I also knew that, um, most people aren't gonna change what they do or buy my product just because they, they care about the environment, right?
Or care about sustainability. That's, that's not good enough. You've got to ... You've gotta put out there something that is just a really excellent quality. Like, it's gotta be better. And people will buy something or will, will go towards something if it offers a better experience. That ... You know, that's how you change people's minds, you know?
[01:03:00] It ... You can ... You can't lecture at them all day and be like, "Well, I'm gonna give you a TED Talk, and afterwards you're gonna buy my, my coffee." And it's like, maybe a couple people will, but, like, that's not how you're gonna make ... you be successful. You've gotta make something that tastes good. And it's gotta, it's gotta then, like, the, the experience of interacting with the company, the customer experience, the experience of getting to know us and, you know, coming to our, our, uh, you know, tastings.
Or we invite people to come in, and, you know, our customers and, and try new products. Or even just having them come back in and refill the can that they ... Yeah, and give them a discount. Be like, "Look, I appreciate you held onto this can. You bring it back, we'll give you two bucks back on whatever coffee you buy."
And then they're like, they're part of the whole thing. Then it's ... You're, you're give ... You're offering them ex- an experience to be, to be involved, right? And to be, to be part of something. And, and that, that's what I always loved about the companies that I admired. Like, the companies that, you know, I always wanted to be a part of were those ones that you felt like you were part of something, um, instead of [01:04:00] just a transactional, you know, thing.
Uh, we wanted to replicate that in what we do here. You appeal to people's senses or sensibilities, right, with, um, you know, with our purpose, 'cause that obviously is part of it. But you ... So they might be interested in that, but they get hooked with, like, "Yeah, but your coffee tastes good," right? Like, this is excellent stuff.
That's how you can really kinda build something, and it, it takes time.
Riley: Do you, um, this is, this is more for my personal curiosity. There was a, and it, it does kind of coincide with what you're saying. It, it, it really belongs in the conversation here, but there was a coffee shop down the street from me, and they roasted in the coffee shop. So they were kind of a, they were the roaster and the reseller, right, or retailer. But man, their coffee was terrible. And I,
Jim Varney: Yeah.
Riley: I would tell the guy, 'cause we got to be kind of friends, I, I would still go there, and I would still order the coffee, and I, I would-- didn't like it. And I, I was so... I loved the environment, [01:05:00] though.
Jim Varney: Yeah
Riley: was great. The, the, the, as a meeting place for business, business meetings and such, it was a wonderful place. So I tolerated the coffee because of, uh, because of the environment, and you sort of mentioned that.
Jim Varney: Yep, yep.
Riley: But
Jim Varney: Yeah
Riley: my contention was this: He really insisted that light roast coffee was the wave of the future, and dark roast had no place in this universe. And, and man, I'm a dark roast guy to the bone. So talk about that for me.
Jim Varney: That is hilarious. So, um, what you're speaking to, um, is a really important part of what we have, in some ways, kind of stumbled into. Um, or, or not exactly, 'cause I think when we started this company, like, one of the things we wanted to be was, like, approachable. You know? And ... 'Cause we understood that, um, a lot of what we wanted to do was pretty heavy.
You know? Like, i- in terms of telling the stories of people all over the world. It's a [01:06:00] lot of information, you know? Like, and we didn't wanna be just, like, hitting people over the head with things. B- we wanted to stay friendly and approachable. What we've learned, too, is, like, coffee culture, like you're talking about, like, at a, at a cafe or, um, anywhere, like, especially in the, in the big cities, right?
Um, the coffee culture is super intimidating, and this is coming from somebody who loves coffee. Like, and when I go to a, a city, I'll search out what the best cafes are, and I'll go there, and I'll ... So I'm, like, part of the problem, right? And I used to work in a cafe, so I was, like, part of that whole thing.
But it is ... What I appreciate after now, like, actually speaking with a lot of our customers and, and meeting people, is it strikes me how much people are just, like, turned off by the sort of obnoxiousness of, of the cafe culture, like you were saying. Of, like, somebody telling them, like, "This is what you should be drinking.
This is how you should be drinking. Don't put any milk or sugar in this coffee. Like, you ... I, the, I made this for you. You should be drinking it black, because that's how you should [01:07:00] appreciate it." And it's like people are like, "Hey, man. Like, I just want to put milk and sugar in my coffee. Like, why are you giving me a hard
I'll, okay, I'll go to Dunkin' Donuts or I'll go to Starbucks, like, where they won't give me a hard time about it." And I feel like, I feel like the cafe culture Is is really missing out on an opportunity to bring more people into the fold of, like, higher quality coffee by being that way. And so we, um, so whenever we do events, um, in front of people, one, one of the things we did from the start, and now we do all the time, was we have these, like, press pots, these Aeropots.
You know, you, you, like kind of put coffee in it, and you press the little thing on the top, and you ... We put one of those out for all of our coffee. So we usually have a
Riley: a French press? Is it... Oh, no, you're talking about just a pump.
Jim Varney: Little pump.
Riley: the...
Jim Varney: So it's like the insulated things, the thermos things, but it has a little pump. on the top. Well, we set those out, um, and we have one for every coffee that we're selling.
'Cause we- at first we were like, "Well, how are people gonna know what our coffee tastes like if they can't taste it?" And we don't have a cafe, so, like, that was just, uh, at first, like, a way for us to just [01:08:00] sell stuff. But also now it's turned out to, like, people really love that because if you go to pretty much any other place, there is no opportunity for people just to try something and, and just to have the experience of, like, trying something new.
And so we have -- We've always had, like, a range. We -- And we lay everything out. Like, okay, it starts on light on this end, and it's darker on this end, and in between is, like, all kinds of stuff. And then we'll walk people through, and first thing we always ask people is, "Well, what do you usually like?" You know?
Like, "Do you like super dark stuff? Are you like -- Do you like the fruity, more experimental stuff? Do you like..." Hey, man, I, I like -- We hear a lot up here is, like, "I just like Dunkin' Donuts. I have no idea what, where, where I should start." You know, we're like, "Okay, I have the perfect coffee for you to start at."
Like, "We got this amazing Costa Rican. It's an incredible coffee. It's, like, right in the middle. It's a crowd-pleaser. Like, I've never met anyone who doesn't like this coffee. Like, if you don't like this coffee, you just don't like coffee," right? Um, and, like, people will start there and be like, "Yeah, it's amazing."
And then I'll -- But they'll, they'll try things next to it, right? They'll surprise themselves [01:09:00] by trying new things, and I feel like that, that just comfort and acceptance and ex- and exploration or, like, let people put milk and sugar in their stuff. Like, you'll, you'll get more p- more people on your side to actually be willing to spend the extra money on, on product that is made correctly, that's made well, that actually gives it a correct amount or a good amount to the farmers, right, that's not exploitative.
You're never gonna get that to that level if you're really just turning your customers away because, you know, you're disdainful of their choices. Yeah. it, it doesn't help anybody really. So yeah, I, I hear you. I hear your pain and, and we tr- we try to be as open and expressive to people, uh, as we can to get people on, on board.
Riley: It's so funny, man. To me it's kind of comical 'cause I, I take it way more serious than I should 'cause I'm like, "Man, I just want, I want dark roast. Freaking give me dark
Jim Varney: Yeah. Yeah.
Riley: you for it." No,
Jim Varney: Yeah.
Riley: just
Jim Varney: Why not?
Riley: longer. I don't know how it works, but that how it works?
Jim Varney: Basically, yeah. So like technically, um, so [01:10:00] we just want, you know, just to spend a minute on that. Like, so coffee, when you're roasting it, um, all coffee kinda goes through a first few minutes of all the same process where it turns from sort of sometimes greenish or blue, like when it's, it's raw. It turns yellow and gets...
And then it gets kinda tan and, and turns like a light brown. And then like... And this is all happening within a matter of a couple minutes. 'Cause like even, even on like a... I've got a six kilogram, it's like 13 pound full capacity roaster here that I use, and a full roast will take anywhere from maybe 10 to 12 minutes, something like that for, for all that coffee.
And so the first few minutes, it, it's getting up to temperature, and then at, um, at a certain point, right around, say, 400 degrees Fahrenheit, uh, a little bit more than that, it goes through what's called first crack, which is like when you're popping popcorn. It, it kinda sounds like it makes like a cracking noise, and that's like the gas on the inside of the bean, like the water vapor, is expanding super fast.
Like it starts to boil, and like it doesn't have anywhere to go, so they start to crack. [01:11:00] And any time after that crack, coffee is technically roasted and can be consumed. Up until that point, you wouldn't wanna drink it. It's kinda raw tasting. Um, but folks that do like the super light roasts, like they'll get it to first, just to first crack, and then they stop.
And so it's super light, and it often has like... You know, there's... That's a way for you to get like some more of the delicate flavors in, in some of the coffees to kinda come through. Personally, I am, I'm much more of a medium roast guy. Like I like it to be kind of in the middle. Um, I'm not super dark, and I'm not super light, but I like things to be sort of...
'Cause I feel like, for me at least, the middle ground for most coffees is where the best flavor comes out. Um, and it's a good balance of some more of those delicate flavors with more of the, you know, more caramel, chocolatey kinda things you get from the darker roasts. And that said, like there are... Each, each coffee from each place, um, it tells me how it wants to be roasted, [01:12:00] you know?
I, I try it at several levels, and really what tastes best is how we leave it. And so we have some that we roast dark and some that we roast really light because that's how it tasted best. I, I don't come in with being like, "Okay, I'm gonna make a dark roast with this coffee." Um, it's just, this is just what the coffee wants.
Um, and so basic- at a fundamental level, like however long you roast after that first crack is how dark the roast is m- basically. And you can go, you know... My darkest one I roast for about two and a half minutes after first crack, so it's, it's a pretty long way. And it, so it's... It gets pretty dark, and, but folks love that.
Like p- people who like dark roast, they're like, "Oh yeah," like, "That's, that's what I'm looking for. That's good."
Riley: that sounds good. I love it, man.
Jim Varney: I got, I gotta get you some.
Riley: guys,
Jim Varney: Exactly
Riley: have you gotten to that place where you've hired an employee yet?
Jim Varney: Not yet. Not yet. Um, that's like, that's a whole, [01:13:00] that's a whole thing, you know? Like, it's just my wife and I, and we're just the co-owners. Like, there's a certain comfort in, in, in ease in when you're doing your own thing. But now... And I've had employees. I, obviously I've had employees before in like my other businesses and stuff.
But, and I, I appreciate, um, I'm excited to get to the point where we grow enough where we can actually bring somebody on board. Like, that means good things. Like, that means we're growing. That means we need to bring work on, and we can support also other people too, which is awesome. But there's also like that there's, there's a lot of work there too, right?
You've, now you've got, you've got training. Now you've got, you know, certain liabilities. You've got, you know, extra expenses. And so it's, it's not a, you know, an, it's not an easy barrier to make, um, to kind of get to that point. Um, I, I would love it for us to get to that point, uh, for sure, and I could see... I can easily see a path where we get to that point where, look, I just can't roast every day all day and also do all the other stuff that I'm doing.
Like, having somebody to help on, on that side of [01:14:00] things, like probably hiring roasters or whatever is gonna be probably our first step as we go through. Um, but yeah, maybe, uh, maybe sometime in the next year we'll, we'll, uh, make that leap.
Riley: Are you, uh, are you taking time to document all your processes as you're going through this stage?
[01:15:00]
Jim Varney: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Um, and that was something-- You talk about diving into a new business. Something that we were really unprepared for when we started was just the, the rigor of basically starting a restaurant. Because at least in Massachusetts, and I think it's true in most, most states, like, as a coffee roaster, even, even not as a cafe, like as a roaster, we have to effectively be licensed just like any other food establishment is.
So, like, you've gotta adhere to your state's, uh, restaurant, like, safety codes and health codes and all that stuff. So you've got the... And if we sell, um, over state lines like we do, like now the state's gotta get involved, and we've got, you know, different licensing and different... So, like, we kinda came into it totally blind, and we were like, "Wow, there's a whole world of regulatory compliance that we were unaware of," and, and, you know.
S- so that has been a huge learning experience. [01:16:00] And a big part of that is just, is documenting your processes, right? You have to, you have to tell them what you're gonna do, and you gotta do it, and then you've gotta check that you did it, basically. You know, and as long as everything's written down, it doesn't have to be super fancy, but you've just gotta basically say what you're gonna do, do what you did, and then say that you did what you did.
And it sounds like... At first, it always sounds like, "Oh, man, that's just a lot of extra work." But, but it is I, I kinda love it. Um, I kinda love going through the process. And every time I roast, you know, I have a whole process I go through of documenting, you know, temperatures, you know, end temperatures, beginning and ending weights, and all of that's written down in, in duplicate.
And I've got, you know, all of this kept in spreadsheets and also physical things. And so, like, we have all of these processes laid out that I find now it's like, it's like the astronauts and the checklists, right? Like, everybody needs, everybody needs checklists to keep you on track, and it actually [01:17:00] helps to kind of, uh, reduce that mental burden.
'Cause it can be really overwhelming, like when you're just busy and going through everything. Like, you don't wanna miss steps. Having, like, the checklist that's just there, you just go through it, it's like, it's an offload. And it does, it does make it easier, and it makes it also th- so that, especially when you're making something like coffee, like, there's a process that we can replicate every single time, so I have the same output every single roast I do.
I, I know what it's gonna be like. Um, so when someone buys it, you know, says, "Hey, I want this now," or, "Roast this for me next week," it's gonna be the same as it was last week. That's really important to maintain quality and maintain consistency, and it's really hard to do if you're not keeping down, keeping track of all your processes.
So yeah, it's, it's a huge part of the business.
Riley: It's a, it is amazing how, how many businesses don't do that. And generally in manufacturing, which is probably kind of what you're considered, right?
Jim Varney: Yeah, it is. Yeah
Riley: they, they will do that more, more often because you kind of have to if you're gonna be consistent. [01:18:00] And, but man, you get outside of, of a manufacturing situation and man, it's like talk to small business owners and they're completely clueless on how they're getting the result they're getting.
And, I always say, "Dude, you need to know how it works so if it breaks you can fix it." 'Cause
Jim Varney: Yeah. Or, or if you're gonna bring on, like, if anyone else is gonna do this work besides you. Like, if you ever wanna sell your business or bring in, like, get help, if it's all in your head, man, like, you, you, you can't ever get it out and you can't ever take a break, you can't ever go on vacation. You ... That, that's the tough thing.
Like, you can't have ... You can't own the entire process. You've gotta make the process separate from you. You can still be, like, absolutely pivotal to how the company works, but you can't have the process inside your head. Uh, that's just not a company. It just doesn't work
Riley: I used to, when I, when I... I have another company besides my electrolyte company, and when I was writing the processes for that, it was, I wrote it so that my 10-year-old [01:19:00] could do it. And I would literally take the, take the sheets of paper that had all the steps on it, hand it to her,
Jim Varney: Mm-hmm
Riley: see if she could replicate it, man.
And if the results came out, then it was good. If it, if it wasn't, I had some adjusting to do, so
Jim Varney: That is super smart. That is, that is, that is super smart because, like, I tell you, um, like, from my background, like, in, in design and everything, like, it was always amazing to me how, like, you can assume that you know how people are gonna do things, and you can get so close to a process or to anything else, and you're like, "Yeah, obviously."
Like, in product design, like, we would develop something, like, maybe it's a keypad or it's a certain way of opening a latch or anything like that where it involves, like, a couple steps, and it seems so obvious. And then you put it in front of people and, like, uh, do testing groups and stuff. Guaranteed in the first, like, five minutes, someone's gonna do it wrong or someone's gonna be like, "How do you do this?"
Or, like, break it or... And so it's a really humbling experience to realize, like, in [01:20:00] your head you've already skipped over, like, 10 steps when you think of, like, d- oh, you just open the latch. People are like, "What? How do you, how do you do that?" Like, you, it's ... You can't assume, and you've gotta actually go through the steps.
And actually doing what you did, super, super smart way to do things.
Riley: Well, we got a kick out of it. So we have these, these little These little packets, right? our electrolyte supplement. And we would watch... So we'd, we'd mail samples out to people, and then they would put little videos up 'cause they were, had some type of influencer, right? And so they'd put these little videos up of them trying to open this packet.
And I just thought it was obvious, you just grab it and tear it, right?
Jim Varney: Yeah.
Riley: man. They'll, they'll
Jim Varney: Nope
Riley: and rip it lengthwise. They'll bite it off with their teeth, and then, you know, they're cutting their lip with the corner of the foil, you know? And I'm like, "Well,
Jim Varney: Yes
Riley: I never thought would ever happen."
But
Jim Varney: Nope. Nope. And the only thing you can guarantee is that somebody will, will misuse whatever you thought was the obvious, [01:21:00] like, solution, right? Like guaranteed every time
Riley: It's hilarious, man. Yeah, we saw some folks using tools. They had to get scissors out or they'd get... Yeah,
Jim Varney: You're like, "Man, it's, all you have to do is just tear it. It's right there." No. It's "
Riley: Man, it's, even got a little nick in it so
Jim Varney: got a thing on it right there. Yeah, I know. No
Riley: That's so good. That's so good. Well, listen, man, I wanna, I wanna move on to a section of our show where we, we do some get to know you questions, and these are a little lighter for the most part.
There's a couple of them in there might be a little not quite so light, but
Jim Varney: Great
Riley: uh... If we can move on to that, you, you game?
Jim Varney: That sounds good. Let's do it
Riley: Awesome. Okay. So listen, this is called the Go Earn Your Salt podcast, and that is the tagline for our electrolyte. It's called Salt Electrolytes, so Go Earn Your Salt is our, is our tagline there.
But we named this podcast after that, okay? When you hear the term go earn your salt, what comes to mind?
Jim Varney: What I think of is like, you know, is [01:22:00] if you wanna make a difference in the world, like, or if you wanna see the world change, or y- y- you know, sitting back and just complaining about stuff or wishing something could be different isn't good enough, that
Riley: Mm-hmm.
Jim Varney: you've gotta go out and do it yourself. Like, if you wanna see something happen, then make it so.
And, like, that's kinda what I think of is like, just go do it. Like, go, go earn your sa- Like, don't just... Put your money where your mouth is in a, in a lot of ways. You know? Or, or just go out there and get it done
Riley: I love it. I love it, man. Jim, what is, uh, what's your favorite pastime?
Jim Varney: I mentioned I'm an avid golfer, and like I do love it. I, but I hate it at the same time like any other golfer. Like, you know, you get, you beat yourself up about things. But on any, like during, when the weather's nice though, that is what I love to do. I love to get out there and golf.
Riley: Uh, golfing's, it's one of those sports, man, I always tell people. Uh, so if you've listened to any of the other episodes, you'll, you know I'm a jujitsu athlete. But
Jim Varney: [01:23:00] Yeah
Riley: but I golfed for a while, and there's so many similarities in it that it just blows my mind that it's that. know, I'll, I'll, I'll miff 100 shots before I catch that one perfect one.
Jim Varney: Yep
Riley: then I'll come back for 100 more crappy ones just 'cause I felt it
Jim Varney: That's the beauty. I think what I do love about it, even though I beat myself about, up about it, you know, like it's, it, I think it is like, I love that it's, um, you know, it can be a, a, a competitive thing if you wanna, you know, compete with your buddies or whatever, but it's, it is really just like it's yourself.
Like, you can get out there, and I do like that for a couple hours I can get outside and be outside in the fresh air and, like, not think about anything else and just, like, focus on doing this one task. And golf is hard, you know? Like, it's, it's not just a, "I'm gonna go take a walk." Like, for me, I, I actually like having a difficult task to focus on.
You know, I like doing crosswords too, and, like, things like that that just, like, kinda keep my mind sharp and active. It's the same kinda thing. Like, I just like having something that is [01:24:00] actually kind of a challenge to give myself and get out there and do that I can also do on my own. Um, and yeah, it's, and it's super fulfilling when you do get that one good shot that works really well.
And it's like, and the game is made, almost designed so that you can have one terrible golf hole. You know, you, you have an eight or a nine, whatever. Oh, you blew up. Like, it's awful. There's always the next tee. Like, you just, like, walk away from it and now you get a fresh start. Like,
Riley: Fresh
Jim Varney: 18 times each round you've got a fresh start.
So it's kinda, it's kinda made that way of, like, uh, you fail, you get back up, do it again
Riley: Oh, that's, that's a cool perspective actually. I never really thought of golf that way, but you're right.
Jim Varney: Neither had I either until just now, and actually I kinda like that. I gotta keep, uh, keep that in mind next time
Riley: in there? Love it, man.
Jim Varney: Yeah, that's cool
Riley: something quirky about you that people don't know?
Jim Varney: Ooh. Wow, what is something quirky about me? I do a lot of voices. My, my kids and my wife know this. Um, but [01:25:00] like, you know, I would do a lot of like silly voices and things or like, I don't know, I don't even realize half the time I'm doing it, and like my kids do it now. Um, I guess if you spend any time around me, I do like to have fun, uh, you know, and that's just one of those things that I can do, like, you know, use silly accents for things or, you know, make up little characters or whatever.
Um, that only comes out when I'm in, you know, in amongst the closest of friends or in my family. So yeah,
Riley: So you're not gonna, you're not gonna show us
Jim Varney: that's... Not, I'm gonna bust it out right here. I'm not gonna bust it out on a podcast, but like that's... It's fun. I, we love, we love spending time together with, you know, with the kids and with my wife.
We've got a really tight-knit group. So yeah, that's, That's a lot of fun to just be silly around them.
Riley: That's awesome. What's your, uh, what's your favorite naughty food?
Jim Varney: Oh man, I am, I am such a dessert, like, fiend. I, I will, I will eat dessert first, like, 'cause I feel like why spoil... I don't wanna spoil my dessert with, with, like, dinner. Um, so, like, uh, and it's, yeah, [01:26:00] I know it's gonna be a problem for me, uh, e- eventually, but, but I do, I do really love, um, like, like cakes especially and things.
Like, my daughter made, a little while ago, she's gonna, like, laugh if I mention this again, but she, like, whipped up this, like... She kinda combined just a couple re- recipes, like on... She's a great baker, my, my daughter, and she's in college, and she made this, like, orange chocolate cake with this, like, pistachio cream icing and, like, God, like, it was, it, it was amazing.
Like, it blew me away. Um, so I, I've been begging her to make it ever since. So, um, I just, yeah, just desserts in general, but, like, especially those kinds of, like, cakes and stuff I just go crazy for.
Riley: Sounds yummy. Do you have
Jim Varney: You're thinking dark coffee and you're thinking, you know, black, a nice cup of black
Riley: yeah,
Jim Varney: coffee and a slice of cake. Man, that sounds good.
Riley: Do you have a nickname, Jim?[01:27:00]
Jim Varney: Do I? I guess s- I, um, I do, I guess, uh, Jimothy. So it's like, we had a friend, we had a friend of the family, like a, uh, their younger daughter, like years and years ago, um, where we were talking about people's names and things and like, you know, my name's Jim or whatever, and somebody was like, they said that Jim was short for, 'cause it's short for James.
But it's like, it's not really short. But she's a little, she was a little kid, and she was trying to figure out what Jim was short for. She's like, "Is that short for, what, Jimothy?" And we just thought that was hilarious. And we're like, "Yeah, why wouldn't it be?" It should be short for Jimothy. So like that's kind of become my, my go-to nickname.
Stuck, stuck with me.
Riley: man. Then those things just stick, right?
Jim Varney: It just sticks. It was funny, and now everyone's like, you know, that's what's on like my... If, if we do like a video game, like your online, your, your moniker or whatever, like it's always Jimothy. That's what it always is for me
Riley: What's, uh, what's the scariest moment of your life?
Jim Varney: Wow. Yeah, that is, that is an interesting question.
Riley: See, they were light questions right up till that one, and it gives you whiplash[01:28:00]
Jim Varney: Yeah. So, I mean, having kids is, is a, is a scary experience, right? Um, and in general, even just existentially, like, you know, going from that, like just being yourself to having like this tiny creature which is dependent upon you and that you've brought into the world. Um, but my, um, uh... I know when my son, my son was born, um, he was like, he had kind of like some complications, like, uh, you know, in, in the womb, whatever.
And so, like my, my wife had gone in just for like a, a, a pre-checkup or whatever. He, you know, wasn't ready to like... And they were like, the doctor called me like, "Yeah, you need to come to the hospital now." You know, like, "We're g- Basically, he's coming out. Like the ba- You know, your son's getting born now." And just that, like that timeframe of not knowing.
He's, he's totally fine. Like, and he- everything got through everything, and he's a trooper. Even as a little kid, he was like super strong. [01:29:00] But like, there was a timeframe there where like my wife and I were just really nervous and really worried about... re- really worried for him. That was probably the s- the scaredest I've been, like for, for, for real, um, in my life.
So, um, yeah. But thank, thank everybody that he's, he's awesome as he is now, and he's a healthy, healthy 16-year-old running around. He can beat me up now probably. But, uh, you know, it's... yeah. Y- And when something happens to, to your loved ones like that, like that's... there's nothing, nothing worse than that.
Riley: Yeah. Yeah. It's scary stuff, man. Um, Jim, in your life, thinking about learning experiences, what's been the, the most valuable learning experience you can remember?
Jim Varney: Oh, man. Wow. Um, you know, I, I do think that the experience at my previous company, um, when my, my business partner... And he had brought me in, you know, as a partner. Like, he had already founded the [01:30:00] company, and so he kind of invited me, sweat equity. I worked for, you know, years to basically get onto it as a partner.
Um, but I'm not an MBA guy. Like, I didn't, I didn't know. Like, I went to art school, you know, a designer. And, and so he w- he was a designer, too. Like, so we're like, well, you know, part of my job was to help grow the company so that he could, you know, be able to sell it, maybe to me, maybe to somebody else. But basically be able to grow it so that he could retire.
And that experience of like, how do I do that? Like, how do I learn, like, on the job how to become, like, a, a CEO, basically? How do I learn to become a business leader so that I can, like, effectively do this and, like, help, you know, my business partner be able to kind of move on to his next stage? And to do that while we're also running the business, you know?
Um, it was the most... Like, those, like, eight years or so was the most professionally that I had grown in my entire life. Like, the leaving of that experience after we sold the [01:31:00] company was like I had really grown so much in understanding, like, how that's done in a way that I never could have done from before.
And it was also just really... It was really satisfying to see, you know, how much work I had to do to... It wasn't just about me. It was, like, the, the biggest takeaway there in that whole experience was learning about how to build a team,
Riley: Mm-hmm.
Jim Varney: and I couldn't just do it myself. Like, I had to get the right ingredients together to be able to make that work.
Um, and that was something I still think of today. We talked about, like, as a partner, like, I didn't wanna just start a roasting, uh, company on my own. I really wanted to do this with somebody else because I saw the value in working even as a small team. And, um, that, that takeaway from that whole experience of being able to, to do that and to grow this thing and, uh, uh, you know, have it be successful was a really, really, um, satisfying part, the most satisfying part of my professional career to this point.
So yeah, that's probably the biggest takeaway. [01:32:00]
Riley: Oh, that's good stuff. uh, what's the best piece of advice you've ever received?
Jim Varney: Wow. Ah, that's a tough one. Um, 'cause I g- I mean, I d- I get a lot of good advice. I, I've had some really good, um... I've had some really good mentors, um, over the years who have really kind of, like, through that whole experience of learning that it's not all on, it's not all on you, like, your job, whether it's in any organization, right?
Like, whether it's in politics or if it's in business or in your family, like, it's not all on, it's not all about you. Like, it's not all on you, right? Um, and so learning how to let go of certain things and trust people, um, was a really important thing that I learned from, um, from my business partner, but also in, I, I worked with a- an outside consultant, uh, [01:33:00] who's become a very g- good friend of mine during that whole transition time.
And, and he really helped me a lot in that whole process, and I feel like that has helped me grow as just a person, not even just as a businessperson, but, like, as just a person to, like, you've gotta trust your team. You've got to be able to lean on folks. And everything's gonna get better if you're not just owning it all yourself or taking it all on yourself.
So I think, I think that's a really good point of advice
Riley: That's interesting how you put that 'cause it, it takes your team outside of those people you directly work with, right? 'Cause there's mentors and there's people that, friends you just ask advice from or, you know, other business owners that you go in and say, "Hey man, what'd you do to solve this?" They're all part of that team, right?
They're part of the, the knowledge base that you go into something with
Jim Varney: Yeah, trust, like the value of, of a network, and that includes your family too. Like, you know, being able to, you know, lean on your spouse or, or, you know, with, with certain things or trust them with, with certain judgments. And it's [01:34:00] blending all of those aspects of, of your life so that it's not just totally sequestered, you know?
Or like, "Oh, this is business me," or, "This is home me." Like it's all kind of, it's all kind of connected. Um, but yeah, the, the team, the team is outside of just like, not people you're just, you're managing, but yeah, your, your whole ecosystem. That's, that's where a lot of that learning comes from to me, like just having, having people you can lean on
Riley: yeah, Jim, what's a, what's an item on your bucket list? Something you wanna do before it's all over
Jim Varney: Oh, I wanna travel. I, I really, I, I love traveling and we've done, you know, a fair bit of it, but there ... We haven't really... I haven't at least gotten super far outside my comfort zone. Um, I... Several years ago, um, for business when I was working with my previous company, I had an opportunity to go to China. And, um, I spent just one day in, in Hong Kong.
And I had, you know, I was there with, with a guy who could, who could speak the language, and so he was kind of my guide or whatever. But, [01:35:00] um, but it was, like, so different from anything else, you know, I had ever seen. And it was like, wow, man, like, there is, there is so much of the world out here that I would love to see.
And so definitely traveling to some more different places, you know? Like, maybe getting outside of the, the real easy, easy ones would be, uh, something I really wanna do. Um, it'd be a shame to just kind of... Like I said, born and bred in New England. Um, I love it here, but, like, yeah, I, I wanna see, I wanna see some more stuff.
That's, that's it.
Riley: That's great. That's great. Jim, what's, uh, what's your favorite book? Something you think everyone should read
Jim Varney: Oh, wow. Boy, I, um, I'm like, I read a lot, but I read, like, weirdly. Um, I I, I read a lot of, like... I like nonfiction. Um, I do read some fiction stuff, but I like, I, I will, like, [01:36:00] just dive into a topic and just buy a bunch of stuff from that. Um, and I usually get about three-quarters of the way through every book, book I read, and then I, and then I stop, and then I move on to the next one.
So, like, I'm not sure if I've finished a lot of books, but I've started a lot. Um, I, uh, I... But probably, like, one of the people that I went back to and read a lot of, um, of his books is, uh, Michael Pollan. Um, the f- food writer really is where he kind of started in, like, The Omnivore's Dilemma, and, um, he wrote several books about, like, you know, eating plants.
And so he kind of, like, uh, through hi- all of his books went through this whole, like, kind of journey. And then he also, uh, wrote a book about kind of expanding or about what consciousness is. So his... Actually, his most recent book, um, is... I'm gonna blank on the actual, uh, name of it, but it's, um, it's all about basically what human consciousness is and what the latest, [01:37:00] like, um, science is behind it, what researchers are doing.
But it was... It's really fascinating because it just opens up how much we don't know about ourselves, like our own... It's all about, like, our, the, our brain is the only way that we can learn about our brain, and so it's so self-re- referential. But nobody really understands how it is that we are all experiencing what we are experiencing right now, and it's, it's super humbling.
It's exciting to know that there's so much that we don't know about the world and even about ourselves. Um, but I just love the way he writes, and I love the topics he goes into. Um, I love, you know, any of his books I think are, are worth picking up and reading. I think it's, it's always an interesting read.
Riley: That's, um, that idea that how much we don't know, you know? There's, uh... We feel like sometimes in our society that we kinda know much everything, but it's not even close, man. The more subject matter I get into, I'm like, "Oh, that too." So know barely, we [01:38:00] scratch the surface on so many different things.
Jim Varney: Yeah. We don't know any- we don't know anything.
Riley: Yeah.
Jim Varney: We know just barely enough to get ourselves into trouble, right? Like, that's basically about as much as we know
Riley: Well, Jim, tell us where you can be found on the social media, on the inter- internets, interwebs.
Jim Varney: The internets, on the interwebs? Uh, so yeah, you, you can find, uh, so our website is wavelength-coffee.com. Um, and yeah, you can find out all about us there and, and buy any of our products there. We ship anywhere in the US. Uh, free shipping on anything over $40, which is, like, just a couple cans of coffee usually gets you that.
Um, and we're also most active, uh, in the socials on, uh, Instagram, and that's, uh, wavelengthcoffee, all one word, um, uh, on Instagram. I'm also on LinkedIn too. Uh, if you just look me up, uh, Jim Varney, and there, there is a page for Wavelength that's associated with me too. But, um, I've, you know, been in, on, uh, business for 30, well, 25-plus years or whatever, so yeah, I've, I've been on LinkedIn for a long time.
It's, uh, [01:39:00] definitely just for more of the business kind of stuff. Uh, that's the, probably the best way to contact me.
Riley: Great, man. Well, listen, man, I appreciate you coming on. This was a fun conversation. I, I really enjoyed it. It's, it's always cool to s- to, uh, talk with guys in the startup phase, right? Because you're, you're going through some obstacles that, again, we talked about, but you didn't expect at the beginning. But some of them you did and, you know, and, and, and figuring out how to navigate all that is, I think, fun for listeners to hear.
So appreciate you coming on and telling your story, man
Jim Varney: Thank you so much for having me. I, I really do appreciate it. And you know what? Let me get you, um, let me get you some dark roasted coffee and see if you like it. Uh, I would love to send you, uh, a can of that. So if I don't have, send me an email. Um, you know, we've been kinda going back and forth, but send me, uh, your address, and, uh, you know, love to get you a, get you a can, see if you like it
Riley: Yeah, man. I'll send you some electrolytes too. We'll reciprocate
Jim Varney: Yeah, I need that.
When I'm out golfing and I'm sweating in the summer, like I definitely need some electrolytes for sure
Riley: That's it, man. All right, Jim. Well, go earn your salt, my friend.
Jim Varney: All right. Thank you, [01:40:00] sir