brandon mc: [00:00:00] Alan is also a, he's a old country boy, but he's a genius businessman, dude, a genius businessman, and he was running a very successful school, very successful school down in Biloxi, and with multiple satellite locations. Just smart dude. And so, um, I was learning from him, and I'm seeing the success he's having with his school, and I was like, "You know what, dude?
I'm gonna run me a million dollar school too, Alan. I'm gonna make a million dollars with my school." And he looked at me dead in my face, dude, and he goes, "You're not the kind of man that can have a million dollar school." And I was like, "Oh my God! Oh, Alan, you're killing me. That's like the meanest thing anybody's ever said to me."
And he goes, "No, no, no, no, don't mishear what I'm saying. If you were the kind of man that could have a million dollar school, you would have one already. In order to do [00:01:00] that, you're gonna have to become the next version of yourself."
Riley: Oh man
brandon mc: And so he wasn't insulting me, he was encouraging me to become the next thing that I needed to be in order to achieve the goal that I wanted to achieve.
Riley: Today I've got my friend Brandon Mccaghren on here. He is the genius behind the PGF Submission Grappling, . We, we, we developed a friendship over the years here, partly through SALT Electrolytes, partly through me just being a fan. He's, he's had a YouTube presence for many years, and I've watched that [00:02:00] grow, watched the PGF event grow, and although jujitsu will come up quite a bit in this episode, it is not going to be the main focus of what we talk about.
So Brandon is also just a great business mind and, uh, I, I brought him on here so we could pick his brain about how to lead, how to do business, how to, how to network, and just the things that go on in his world are, are big ideas with, with, uh, a lot of vision attached. So Brandon, welcome to the show, man
brandon mc: Thank you for having me. I appreciate the kind words. Ready to do it
Riley: All right, dude. Well, let's, let's take this. So people are looking at the title on the video, and they're seeing the spelling of your last name, but it's not pronounced the way it's spelled. So would you, would you help us all out with that?
brandon mc: With how to pronounce the last name?
Riley: Yes, sir
brandon mc: Uh, we say McCatherin. That can't be right, obviously. There's-- something has gone wrong over the years, but that is the way we say it
Riley: I love it. So it's [00:03:00] a T-H, not a, not a G-H,
brandon mc: Yeah
Riley: Yeah. um, now that we have that out of the way for sure, I want, I want you to talk about, man, um, who you are, where you grew up, what life was like as a kid
brandon mc: Um, I'm from Lawrence County, Alabama, a tiny little town called Speak. So I had, I think we had 500-ish people in the entire school, K through 12 public school, just to give you an idea of the kind of place I'm from. Very small, very small place
Riley: Did, uh... So born and raised there? Are you still m- you're just still in Alabama, but near there?
brandon mc: Uh, yeah, about half an hour away
Riley: Nice, man. Brandon, were you always kind of geared toward the big ideas and entrepreneurship?
brandon mc: Um, y- I don't know if I was always geared towards on... Yeah, kinda, [00:04:00] to be honest with you. Um Yeah, I mean, it's kinda hard to say, but I, I do remember, like, very when I was, like, a little kid, I would, uh, I would just, like, gather things up and try to sell them back to my family . You know what I mean? Like, like, I would, uh, I would make a sandwich and then, like, open a sandwich shop when I was, like, six or whatever.
You know what I mean? Just... So I always kinda had that, that in me, I guess. But I didn't always run businesses until I was, like, into my 20s. It's like, I, I didn't, like, start a T-shirt business in high school or something like that, you know. I, I thought that I was gonna go out and just get a job and do, do that kinda stuff.
I, I guess that's probably a product of just growing up in the environment that I grew up in. Like, there were no businesses. You know what I mean? And that my family wasn't entrepreneurial. But I g- I guess that probably always was kinda, like, [00:05:00] in, in my bones, so to speak
Riley: Yeah, you, you kind of strike me as that type of person that, that probably had it in there brewing, 'cause you, you've taken to it so much as an adult man. And like I said, I've watched it at a distance, but it's cool to see these, these things you've built. So, um, will you talk about, will you talk about that?
So we're gonna talk a bunch about the PGF, but it, it started even earlier where you started your jujitsu journey. And jujitsu, just by its very nature, takes a lot of, uh, time. It takes a lot of, uh, vision. It takes a lot of discipline, um, sticking with it. Will you talk about that?
, Where did that start, that desire to, for grappling?
brandon mc: Uh, well, it definitely wasn't something that I grew up... I didn't grow up thinking I was gonna be in martial arts, you know what I'm saying? Um, what we just, me and my wife, Lindsay, we got into it because we just needed like something [00:06:00] that we could do together that would h- like, help me stay in shape, 'cause I was kinda getting...
Like, I was a, I wasn't like a s- exceptional athlete growing up, but I always played sports growing up, basketball, football, mostly basketball. And, uh, and then when I got out of college, uh, my activity level like started dropping, but my Mountain Dew level kept rising. You know what I'm saying? And so she sat me down one day and she's like, "All right, we gotta, we gotta put a stop to this.
I'm not trying to be a widow for the last 20 years of my life." So, so we signed up and started doing martial arts together with a dude named Jamie Webster, incredible martial artist. But it wasn't a jujitsu school, it was a Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, which is like a Korean style, kinda similar to Tae- what you would think of when you think of TaeKwonDo.
We just call it karate around these parts, you know. But, uh, but yeah, Jamie is the man. But he's a [00:07:00] super well-rounded martial artist, and so he was into grappling, he was into boxing, he was into, at that time, we called it NHB. It wasn't MMA, you know. And, um, so he introduced me to grappling even, I, I guess, into like doing grappling.
Like we had, Lindsay and I had been watching UFC for several years, which is why we were like, she was like, "Oh, well, we should do martial arts together." Like, we're not gonna go play disc golf or something like that. I'm definitely not going to the gym and running and lifting weights. That was out. I wasn't gonna do that.
And so she was like, "Well, we should like,
Riley: Oh
brandon mc: try to learn something together, you know, like start at the same time and learn together." And so that was kinda what we landed on, and I don't know, I was just like addicted to it right away for whatever reason
Riley: Yeah, it has that effect on people
brandon mc: Yeah, like full, full-blown addiction, you know?
Riley: Mm-hmm. Do, [00:08:00] do you tend to be that way with other things too,
brandon mc: Yeah.
Riley: kind of the one
brandon mc: No, no, no. I'm like, I'm just... That's me. My, my daughter always makes fun of me. Like she was saying the other day, like, "Dad, you're so weird. Like, you can fo- you can't focus on anything for five minutes, but you can focus on some things for 15 years." I'm like, "Yeah, that's, that's it."
Riley: That's like a-- I think that's kind of an ADD superpower,
brandon mc: Mm-hmm. It's definitely a superpower once you learn to manage it, but it is not a superpower until you learn to manage it, for sure
Riley: Yeah. Gosh, man. We'll talk about that. So as you start to kind of develop as a man and you're, you're, you're, you, you kind of mentioned getting into martial arts a little later, um, and then into business even a little later, superpower of kind of locking in and, and developing the skill set necessary, uh, discuss that.
Kind of where, where, where did you receive education as far as business [00:09:00] education? Was it schooling? Was it just self-study? Was it... What, what happened there?
brandon mc: Um, I, I mean, honestly, most of my business education, I would say just come... Like, I have a degree in business. I have a degree in theology. I have a bachelor's in theology, and I have a bachelor's in business. And, you know, uh, the business degree is like, I learned how to use Microsoft Excel. Like, that's about all I can remember from the business degree.
Uh, so I would say most of whatever I know about business came from just wanting to do jujitsu and wanting to, like, have a gym that I could focus on full-time. So, and then, you know, just picking up. I, I've been lucky to have met and been around some really smart people over the years and just being hungry and going out and grabbing the knowledge for myself.
So [00:10:00] yeah, I, I wouldn't say that, uh, going to school for it was very useful. I, I would say the theology degree has been more useful for business than the business degree has.
Riley: In what ways?
brandon mc: I mean, just, you know, learning... I had to do a lot of, like, public speaking and learning how to, like, organize and work through a curriculum and, uh, having to think through first principles kind of thinking and stuff like that.
So yeah, how to research, you know, things like that. But the business degree, I, I would say anything I learned in business school is so outdated that it's not usable at this point.
Riley: Oh my gosh,
brandon mc: 'cause, I mean, you gotta think, dude, I'm 46 years old, so that was like, I graduated college in what, 2002 or 2003, something like that.
Crazy
Riley: That's funny cause I I talk to a lot of business owners on here and they'll tell me the same thing where it's like uh you know they get most of their education through self selftaught or [00:11:00] another avenue like that you know Having a theology degree being the big the big thing that you were able to take take skills away from is That's that's pretty cool to me Talk to me about this man So you're What what belt were you when you started your jujitsu school
brandon mc: Blue
Riley: You were blue Okay So reason I bring that up I think a lot of times in business we're fearful Blue belts for those listeners who don't know is the second belt in jujitsu It's it's pretty early on and there is some controversy about that which I don't know why Blue belts start a lot of good schools But uh there's always that fear of being not ready yet right And and so we're we don't wanna put ourselves out there until we're we feel fully ready which I don't know if that ever comes So what do you think
brandon mc: Um, well, I, I will have to say that I didn't start my school or I didn't start 10th Planet [00:12:00] Decatur bec- I, I didn't, like, take on my own school because I wanted to get rich or have a business. It was so that I could be close to the source and have, like, the access that I really needed to learn from Eddie.
Does that make sense? Like, it was just like a, it was a, it was a better way to get access to the information and the training that I wanted. That was the goal. And then having a school, having the academy was, like, a good step to achieve in order to, like, make sure that I had, like, the cleanest line of access, if that makes sense.
And then building a good school just came over time. And I, I wouldn't know-- I mean, I guess it depends on your definition of a good school. I don't, I don't really run my gym like a business in most ways. It's more like a social club. You know, I, I make most of my money in other [00:13:00] ways, like t- through, through other businesses that I've started and stuff like that
Riley: Do you um know you talk about that social club part of it right That that ability to put yourself within the proximity of the thing you wanna do right I I love that you brought that up I've met a lot of school owners a lot of business owners in general who do that thing that's adjacent to what they wanna do just for the networking you know reasons Um how has that affected your business as you as you grow in these other areas too right Cause it's not just it's not just your school We're talking about your school here but the PGF and it's it's your commentatating on in the sporting events It's it's other things right
brandon mc: No, it's all just jujitsu. I feel like the more that I can learn and the closer I can be to, like, the heart and the philosophy of jujitsu, the more it impacts me in a positive way, [00:14:00] you know, in, in everything, man. Like in the way I problem solve, the way I think, the way that I treat people, the way my physical health, all of that stuff.
So for me, everything, all of my businesses are surrounding jujitsu, you know? I could make way more money with the things I know and my skill set if I would choose a different niche. But I, I wanna, I wanna be around jujitsu all the time. I'm sick in the head or something. I don't know what's wrong with me
Riley: It's a cool group of people to be around man I the you know the more the more I've been in it
brandon mc: Yeah. I mean, yes, yes. Cool group of people. Pretty much everybody that I've met in jujitsu has been, has been really cool or smart or talented or whatever, but it's, it's not, I mean, it's not the people for me. It's like, I don't know, I guess this is kinda dork... People think this is cringe and dorky. I guess [00:15:00] it's not cool to think this way, but I like, to me it's like, it's almost, it's the philosophy.
I, I'm more attracted to the art part of martial arts than I am to the martial part of martial arts. Like, I like the martial, it needs to be martial. I wanna be capable in a martial way, but to me, it's the art. It's the, it's the filter through which I see the world. It's the filter through which I problem solve.
To me, those parts of jujitsu are the parts that like speak to me. Like I, I love jujitsu and like, it's romantic, I guess, for lack of a better term. It's, uh, I like the romance of it. I like the, I like Musashi. I like the, I don't know. It's just there's something about the way that it speaks to my soul, I guess.
That that's the part that I wanna be around and wanna like touch every day. Does that make [00:16:00] sense?
Riley: It it makes sense to me right I do and I I totally understand
brandon mc: Like, that's out of fashion to think, to say that. Like, now you have to, with jujitsu it feels like you have to be like, "Oh, it's just a, we're just learning how to fight. Like, don't take it so serious." But to me it is serious. Like, I love those parts of it, you know? And like, I don't know, you know how like growing up in school, it's like if you make good grades, that's not cool.
It's not cool to be smart and to try hard. I feel like jujitsu has started to take that on in the culture, and I, I've, I don't like that part of it. I feel like people are missing out on the best parts by just focusing on the physical. Like, to me, the physical is a small part of it. Like, what it does for you, what it teaches you, how it shapes your, the way you see the world, and [00:17:00] again, like the problem-solving, the, all of those parts, those are the parts that are the most important to me, and those are the parts that I wanna pass on.
Like, yes, I wanna be good, and I want my students to be good. And again, it's martial arts, so if it's not martial, it's not martial arts. It has to be effective at that part. But that's only half of martial arts. The other half is equally important, and I feel like a lot of, a lot of the community is kinda losing sight of that because it's so attached to fighting that it has to be all about fighting.
It has to be all about winning or doing the thing. Don't take it so seriously. But it is serious to me. It's, that's the part I like the best
Riley: It's funny you you you brought up problemsolving man and how it kind of bleeds out into these other areas of your life and that just the efficiency of what we're always trying to do in jujitsu right [00:18:00] does does does bleed out and it becomes part of your your business and your family life and and all those other things And talk about about that maybe a little more about how the principles in jujitsu that you can take other places
brandon mc: Um, well, I mean, I feel like there's... I feel like we could go forever on that. But I, I guess
Well, like, okay, let me say it this way. So what are the... Let me ask you a que- I, I'ma answer your question by answer- asking you a question. What are the fundamentals of jujitsu? What are the, like, when you think of the basics, what do you think of? What are the basics?
Riley: You know you challenged me on this one time Brad I don't know if you even remember that but we were talking down at Carlos event one time and and I was [00:19:00] was kind of going off on how the more I know the less I think I know and the more complicated this thing seems to get And you yeah you challenged me on that and it really got my mind I've been rolling that around in my head And and honestly I don't remember exactly what you said but you you kind of had it narrowed down to just a few principles of you know balance leverage and timing or something along those those lines And that I have phrased I've used this term crossbones for a long time when it comes to jujitsu and as a the leverage principle right Of how to to use our body in a fight situation to To create proper leverage you know And and so I guess the question on what are the fundamentals it's There's just these big principles that you can you can summarize that basically everything fits into [00:20:00] and there are only three four five of them right If you if you really start to boil it down to the nuts and bolts of what we're doing But it comes across with all these other you know movements and individual moves and techniques that we teach in class and uh yeah what are the fundamentals I I I don't know if I have a concise answer to that because
brandon mc: Well, I think most people would probably,
Riley: right
brandon mc: yeah, I think most people would probably, if you said, uh, what are the basics of jujitsu? I feel like most people would be like, "Oh, well, the basic moves are the Americana, the bridge and roll, uh, an arm lock, a rear naked choke." And then somebody would argue with them, be like, "No, no, no, it's all about position before submission."
And I feel like they miss the entire point. Like, the fundamentals are not moves, they're a set of ideas, I think. And specifically in jujitsu, like you said, I think it probably boils down [00:21:00] to three or four, maybe five ideas: balance, weight distribution, leverage, patience, right? Okay, now I say all that to say that everything is that.
Every skill or everything is that, not just jujitsu. Like, what are the first principles of guitar? What are the first principles of business? What are the first principles of relationship? You know what I'm saying? And if you can
Riley: Mmhmm
brandon mc: boil down the th- the thing that you're looking at, when you look at any skill set or any avenue, I think it's easy to get lost in the details in the beginning because you don't understand it deeply enough to understand how simple it actually is.
Like, the thing is simple. A relationship is very, very complex. [00:22:00] Actually, it's pretty simple. You matter more than I do, and if I always put your interest and your feelings in my marriage above my own, then you're gonna start to treat me the same way, and this thing is gonna be okay. You know what I'm saying?
Well,
Riley: Mmhmm
brandon mc: I, I don't know. I, I feel like that's... You don't understand, you can't distill the principles until you've gone through the, uh, the minutiae in some ways, but the minutiae is not the fundamentals. The simple-- Like, there are no basic moves. There are just The basic ideas. Like what is a, what is an Americana?
What makes an Americana work? Well, it's actually the same thing that makes a berimbolo work. Weight distribution, leverage, timing. [00:23:00] You know what I'm saying? And
Riley: what you're saying yeah
brandon mc: so once you, once you get a grasp and a focus on the basic, the first principles, then every time that you learn a new thing, you improve all the other things at the same time.
So like you learn one move to learn 10,000 moves. You learn 10,000 moves to master and understand one move. I, I think that was probably Jean Jacques that told me that, and then probably Bruce Lee told him that, who knows, you know? But, but that's the idea is like, if I can, if I can grab on to the first couple of ideas, like the, the real root of this thing, then I can really deepen my understanding by simplifying.
Does that make sense?
Riley: It makes so much sense man cause I you know you start to feel that with anything that you spend a lot of time I I always look up to the just the the Japanese like sword makers so much cause I I watch these guys spend a [00:24:00] lifetime on the metallurgy and then the the different ways to heat treat and then the different ways to actually forge you know these these swords And they'll spend their whole life doing this to where they understand it down to this degree that is so detailed that it becomes simpler you know But when it's when they started when they were one year or two years or three years in it wasn't that way It looked like chaos to them you know But that skill set was was put into such a level of mastery in their later years that they understand they understand the big picture I I think that's what you're saying
brandon mc: Yeah, I think so. Like, what, I can't remember what the name of the movie was, but it's like a documentary about this dude who makes sushi in Japan. It's like Jiro Loves Sushi or something like that, and it's just rice and a piece of fish. At the end of the day, it's rice and a piece of fish. Like, that's... And he dedicated his [00:25:00] life to making it as simple and perfect as possible, and understanding what it was that made rice and a piece of fish so special.
Gave his life to it, and, like, that almost sounds crazy, but it's completely beautiful. You know what I'm saying? And so I don't think that jujitsu is complex. I don't think there, there are moves. I think there's just movement, and there's just ideas, and there's just following the movements and being, like, in tune with the moment.
And I think that learning that from jujitsu, jujitsu's really been like, um, a vehicle for learning and for self-mastery for me. So, like, as I've been able to get better and better and [00:26:00] understand more deeply jujitsu, it's helped me to understand how to pick up a new skill as well. And so I think any of the success that I've had in business has probably been from trying to get as deep into the jujitsu game as I could.
Riley: It's such an interesting parallel to me man and it it it still to this day doesn't cease to amaze me anytime I see the carryover right Where I get kind of nerded out on it I um I was So I'm I'm raising up a couple of guys in one of my companies where I've I've been training them for the last six years seven years where they're learning the trade but they're also learning how to run the business um And what I see happen there is the the level of understanding I have after I've ran it for 20 years very different from where they're at You know they're still learning Oh I have to make this phone call or I have to do [00:27:00] this task where I'm seeing the big picture And it it so parallels man So all these you know business owners that listen to this this podcast we're talking jujitsu but we're not talking jujitsu We're talking mastery of the thing we do and understanding it and being able to distill it down to the simple principles of I love you keep keep saying first principles right That's uh that's what we're trying to eventually get to where we understand it in that sort of a way Um so talking about training these guys up right Brandon What what makes a good student
[00:28:00]
brandon mc: Um, time and consistency. Like, I think that's the only way to get good at anything. Like, if you're gonna get good at any skill, no matter what it is, any skill, you're gonna have to show up all the time for a long time, right? Like, you can show up all the time for a short time and you'll get good, but you will never get great, right?
Or you can show up sometimes for a long time and you'll get good, but you'll never get [00:29:00] great. But if you wanna be excellent, the path to excellence is to show up all the time for a long time, and that's the only way. Now, the quality of the work that you do will make a big difference while you're there all the time for a long time, and that will kinda help accelerate.
But i- it almost doesn't matter your strategy If, like your strategy could be perfect, but if you don't show up all the time for a long time, the strategy won't yield the results that you want, you know? So show up all the time for a long time, and that's, that's the se- that's the secret sauce. And then you, over time or through good connections and good teachers, good mentors, you're able to shortcut the actual methods within that.
But that's the [00:30:00] only way to get good at guitar is to do it all the time for a long time. The only way to get good at business is to do it all the time for a long time. There's, this trick will help and this trick will help, but it's not about tricks. It's, the, the tricks doesn't get, get you where you wanna go.
Tricks can get you a win today. Tricks can get you a victory in this small moment. But only depth of mastery will really get you what you're ultimately after
Riley: Yeah where you really start to understand the nuance right Cause I we've all been there and again back to the the jujitsu world where we learn some little little trick some little move where we can catch somebody once but not gonna catch them five times Whether they'll catch on before that right Brandon what's um Talk about the PGF So one of the things I wanted to discuss with you that has always intrigued me was you [00:31:00] you started in this with this this vision of taking a sport like jujitsu which has been It's kinda rough go trying to get it to the general public right Uh as far as a sporting event right Our tournaments are they're they're kinda like a weekend wrestling tournament like high school wrestling but with different rules set That's how they've been ran forever But you came up with a new idea Um tell us tell us kinda what your original vision for it was
brandon mc: Um, I definitely did not come up with a new idea. I stole what was already working in real sports, like quote unquote real sports, basketball, football, soccer, hockey. All of these things are in leagues, seasons with teams. Martial arts doesn't have that. Like I was telling you, I grew up playing regular stick and ball kind of sports, you know?
And, uh, dude, when I got into martial arts, [00:32:00] I was obsessed, but there was no way to be a fan. There was no way to... Like, where do you go play pickup jujitsu? Like at the rec league, you know what I mean? Like, there's, there's no way to be a fan. There's no way to like get involved. There's no way to follow and have like regional team pride and stuff like that.
Like, I grew up in Alabama, dude. It's roll tide or die, you know what I'm saying? And it's like, how do you do that in jujitsu? And so for me, it was just super obvious that, you know, we just need to do what these other like successful sports are doing. And so yeah, I mean, that was the basic idea. Not, and I wasn't thinking of it from a, "Let's go change the face of jujitsu forever."
I was just thinking of like, "Oh, this is the thing that I miss about sports, and I don't have it here. Like, what, how could we make that?" [00:33:00] You know? And I was just thinking like something regionally in the beginning, but I wanted to structure it in, in, you know, just like the, the fundamentals of it. I wanted to structure it in the way that I saw the NBA working, and the NFL, and college basketball, and all of those things
Riley: Man as I saw it grow like I you know I started watching season one right Uh when you guys first put it out there And it's changed a bunch since then you started where you started and it was it was much lower production value It was
brandon mc: Oh, there's no production value in the beginning. It was me, it was me and Keelan in my gym with a cellphone, you know?
Riley: Right
brandon mc: But the ideas, the ideas were, were the same, you know. Like, the idea we wrote down on paper, so, like, we just sat down at the kitchen table, and talk about managing ADD, like, we sat down at the kitchen table, and I just laid out a whole table full of blank paper, me and Keelan [00:34:00] and Lindsay, and just, "Okay, well, w- okay, we're gonna do this, right?
Well then, what does it look like in its final form?" Like, begin with the end in mind. When it, when it finally works, what will it have? What will it be? And so what it looks like today, we wrote out before season one started. So it was, it's all... I mean, I still got all those papers somewhere. Like, it was all laid out and documented.
Like, it will have teams. It will, okay, well, this is what it looks like in the end. Well, obviously we can't start right there, but we can build the skeleton and the bones of it right there, and then we'll begin with what we have, and we'll work towards what it will be. Like, it's gonna be a winner in the long run.
Okay. Well, let's, let's, let's take that and just build towards that. So, but the structure [00:35:00] was... I mean, it wasn't exactly the same, but it was freaking much exactly the same, you know?
Riley: Having that that beginning with the end in mind man you've you've got that what you want it to look like and that helps you really backtrack and and be able to come up with solutions to problems that you can kind of foresee when you do it that that way
brandon mc: Yeah. Yeah, yeah
Riley: When when you guys started this thing and again we we kind of joke about it being being low production value it was but it wasn't Like you had all the the makings You had You guys were learning the skills right You were learning how to uh photograph or video video something as uh as dynamic as jujitsu There's a lot of moving parts there trying to get r the right angles the So it almost takes a I think an experienced cameraman to to catch the right things in a in jujitsu And I
brandon mc: I actually totally disagree. I actually totally disagree with what you just said. I think,
Riley: me
brandon mc: well, [00:36:00] we didn't have that. Keelan was not an experienced cameraman when we started. He had zero experience.
Riley: Hmm
brandon mc: Like, and I think
Riley: of jujitsu
brandon mc: he was a, when we started PGF, he might've been maybe a purple belt.
Riley: Mmhmm
brandon mc: Um, so yeah, he was training here, but I think that not being an experienced cameraman is what, I think that was kind of the secret to it.
Like, 'cause,
Riley: on that
brandon mc: well, if he would've had the skill set already, he would've known what to do the right way. But the right way was, was producing subpar jujitsu. Set the camera up on the corners,
Riley: Mmhmm
brandon mc: in, zoom out, like multiple camera angles, and Keelan was like, "Well, no, we don't have, we don't have multiple cameras.
We don't have multiple camera angles. I'm gonna get on the mat and get down close to this [00:37:00] thing." And I think that no, like at that time, nobody was like on the mat with a cam- now you see every, every promotion is pretty much doing it. But that was Keelan. That started from him not being experienced and going, "Well, what do we actually want?
We wanna be able to see what's going on. Like, what's the problem with IBJJF when you try to watch it on, like you try to go back and watch your matches from your open tournament?" Well, it's a, the problem is it's a camera on the sideline, and like the submission happens on the other side. He's like, "Well, we can't have that."
Uh, and what is, the things that make jujitsu work and make it beautiful are hard to see.
Riley: That's
brandon mc: the thing that makes an arm bar successful versus not successful are hard to see. Well, you can't catch that from the wrong angle. So he's like, "Well, in order to get the angle I need, this sport all happens right here.
It's not spread out across a hundred-yard field or [00:38:00] across a soccer field. It all happens in tight space with small movements. Well, then I need to be able to get down on top of these guys and see." And so I think that not having experience as a cameraman is actually what made him, what made it viable, I guess.
Maybe viable is not the right word.
Riley: cause I the experience I was talking about is being an experienced grappler who
brandon mc: Hmm
Riley: to look for and knows what angle to get that camera at Cause I
brandon mc: Yeah, that's important
Riley: he he's he's done such an excellent job with that cause that's one of the things that I've noticed since the very beginning is that you guys you guys had that in place Cause you like you said you know in the tournament setting when you just set up a stationary camera and it's filming and the
brandon mc: Crazy
Riley: way or mom walks past with her kids in the stroller and somebody kicks the tripod knocks it over you know There's there's all that stuff that goes on Um but even man you filmed you filmed uh like little instructionals and little What do you call them The did you just [00:39:00] the move of the day or the the You you've got a name for yours when you content out on the YouTube One
brandon mc: Oh, I mean, I've had a bunch of them. Yeah. Yeah. People always say that 'cause those were the most popular ones, but I didn't... I was doing those before short-form content was a thing. I just saw that, oh, there is no short-form content going out. And so I was like, what if I-- Like, all the instructionals that I was trying to watch were, were long
Riley: hours long
brandon mc: or, or they were, you know, if somebody did have something up on YouTube, it was him talking for 20 minutes.
I was like, oh my God, people are not gonna watch these. Like, instead of trying to teach the whole move, let me like show you the one part that you're missing and get it done in under a minute. And then after that, I'm not saying like I made, uh, platforms change. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying like I saw that that was where it was gonna have to go [00:40:00] because of just the way that attention works.
And so, uh, yeah. But then once everybody started doing short-form content and once it started becoming popular, I just moved on and started doing something else. I pretty much only do long-form content now Because everybody does short form content.
Riley: Sure sure
brandon mc: an abundance of it, but there's, like, there's a serious need for...
Because everybody can do-- The, the barrier for entry to do quality content now, and by quality, I mean visually, like, it's, it's good. Like, it looks good. You got good angle. You got a nice camera. Everybody's got a nice camera in their pocket now. And so anybody can make what looks like good content. And I, I think even as AI becomes more and more prominent, um, that's just gonna become more and more the case.
[00:41:00] Quality, good-looking things are gonna... You're gonna be able to just, like, talk to your phone and produce it in ten minutes, you know what I mean? Or faster. But as all of that becomes, uh, the barrier to entry becomes lower and lower, there's-- The, the people are gonna crave live, real... Yes. And so I think the last s- the last things that are gonna be standing are live sports and live content creators.
That's all that's gonna be left. So I've already shifted over to that. I'm just pretty much doing everything live these days. And let, let other people clip it up
Riley: Man you you just said something that we we were talking about principles of of life but you you just alluded to not doing what everyone else is doing but go the other way It's almost I feel like you can almost go any way as long as it's not the [00:42:00] same way as everyone else is going
brandon mc: Well, it depends on what your goal is,
Riley: You know that it is fascinating to me this this idea of kinda swimming upstream you know I don't know if that's the right way to put it Um But you're taking that You said you're going long form now What are you what are you doing with that
brandon mc: I pretty much only do live content now, just live stream. But like, um, if I'm gonna teach, I'm not gonna set up the insane... Like I wanna teach a arm lock or whatever and put it on YouTube. I'm not gonna set up all the crazy camera and lights and all of that. Just go live and keep it simple. Like it, I think like The, the fact that it doesn't necessarily look polished is almost an advantage now because it's very [00:43:00] obviously not AI, and it's very obviously not, um...
And I, dude, I, I actually, I don't wanna leave the impression that I'm against AI. I like AI. I actually really like AI. But I don't like, um, I don't think it's good to take shortcuts in the, in the important parts. Like, if you don't have the skill set and you replace it, like you're like letting AI do your thinking for you, and that's not good.
You know? Letting it do the,
Riley: agree
brandon mc: it do the parts you don't wanna do and that you don't have time to do or that would help you to accomplish the actual task or to like express the skill set, good, right? But anyway, um, yeah, so I think, uh, just, yeah, live content is, is where it's all gonna go. And then [00:44:00] other content creators will grab your stuff and, and put it out there and clip it up and turn it into short form.
But I'm not gonna waste my... I don't wanna say waste. I'm not gonna spend my time on editing an Instagram video at this point. Like, it just makes my skin crawl
Riley: I've done enough of that
brandon mc: Well, and it's just like, what is the return on investment of my time for that? Like, short form content... Well, like, how many followers do you have on Instagram? About, just out of curiosity.
Riley: thousand
brandon mc: Okay.
Riley: huge
brandon mc: Well, how... When you post something, how, what percentage of those followers do you think get notified of that?
Riley: I guess
brandon mc: I, I'll give you, I'll...
Riley: talking about It's small
brandon mc: Yes. Well, so like social media doesn't exist anymore.
Riley: Mmhmm
brandon mc: Like following someone is not a guarantee that you're gonna see their [00:45:00] content, but that's not what we all signed up for back in the day. I followed you because you're my friend and I wanna see your stuff. Well, if you post something, that doesn't mean it's gonna pop up in my feed.
Social media is dead, and it died a long time ago. Interest media is what it is now. So what shows up in your feed when you turn it on? Things you're interested in. You don't have to follow the person. Uh, it's not even just things you're interested in, it's things that the algorithm thinks you might be interested in.
Oh, you like this, so you might like this. I'm gonna pop this into your feed. That's not social media,
Riley: Right
brandon mc: you know? So
Riley: again right
brandon mc: Uh, yeah, I mean, uh, that's-- But it's obvious, right? That's super obvious. Like, that's exactly what's happening. I wanna pop things that I think the algorithm's gonna feed you things that it thinks are gonna keep you on the platform for longer so that they can show you more ads, right?
But, uh, you [00:46:00] never build, like as a content creator, you never build deep fans like that. You know what I'm saying? How do you build deep fans? By letting them in and letting them get to know you. Uh, like there's this, um... So when I was thinking that I was gonna be a musician back in when I was a teenager, in my early 20s, I read this, it's like an article, it's like an essay.
It's pretty short. It's not like a full book, so I would recommend you go read it, actually. But it's called A Thousand True Fans, and I'm pretty sure the guy that wrote it is Kevin Kelly. I'm pretty sure that's his name. Kevin something with a K. I'm pretty sure it's Kevin Kelly. A Thousand True Fans.
Anyway, his basic premise is you don't need, um, a million followers to make a living doing your art. You don't need a million fans. You need 1,000 fans [00:47:00] that love you so much they're gonna spend $100 a year with your brand. Now you have a six-figure salary doing exactly what you wanted to do. That's basically the prem...
Like it's the short, ugly, dirty version of it, but that's basically the premise of it. And so to me, that's way more important. Um, like we don't need a million followers in the PGF. We need a couple of thousand people who ride or die with the idea. Like, I don't need a whole BJJ Fanatics platform for my jujitsu, my personal brand.
I need a couple of thousand people who are like, I speak in the way that resonates with them. And the only way that they're gonna figure that out is by, is through long-form content. Now, the short-form content delivers them to the long-form content, so the short-form content has a place. It's not dead. It's not, um, unnecessary.
It's necessary, [00:48:00] but it's not the focus. Like making short-form content as the primary focus, uh, is like you're looking at the funnel upside down, I think.
Riley: Hmm God's good dude You got my mind spinning again Um Let's talk about this Brandon You Networking is something that I've observed that you're extremely good at Um you're a very people person just by your nature but I think that's a skill you've you've developed over the years Um talk about what the proximity to and the relationships with other people means in business
brandon mc: Well, I think that's probably the most important part is the people. So, uh, uh, I'll, I'll say this. This is obs- this-- The way I'm gonna say it, I stole from somebody else, but it... The idea I feel like i- he, he was able to verbalize the [00:49:00] way I feel that's very important. But Gary Vaynerchuk is, is this guy's name, Gary Vee.
He's super popular business mentor type on pretty much every channel. Um, he says that every relationship, he wants to give 51% of the value. Like, if there's 100% of value points in this relationship between you and I, I wanna make sure that you walk away with at least 51% of the value, right? And so if you have to take a small loss in order to, to make sure that you feel good about the way this went, that's okay.
That doesn't mean, like, take an L on everything, for sure, and that also doesn't mean that every interaction is gonna go your way, right? But over the long term, that's a giant win. You always win in the long term like that. [00:50:00] And so, um, to me, that's, uh, a, that's really, really important, not just in business, but in my marriage, with my children, with my students, with my friends.
Like, I wanna make sure that whatever this is, that you feel good at the end of it. You feel like you... Not... And I guess, one, it almost sounds transactional. Like, it's... So I'll use that term, but it's, it's bigger than that. Like, I wanna make sure that you won. You know? That when we, when this walks away, you felt heard, you felt valued, you felt like, not that you got one over on me, but that, that you felt like I cared.
Does that make sense?
Riley: It makes sense yeah Yeah the term you won you know is Cause both guys can walk out of any situation both feeling
brandon mc: Yeah, of course
Riley: business is done properly right
brandon mc: Yeah[00:51:00]
Riley: Do you um as you're as you're growing these things
brandon mc: If a deal is done properly, yeah. I don't know if all business should be done that way, but yeah, if a deal is done properly, if a relationship is done... Well, it depends on what your goal is in business, dude. Depends on how you see the world. I'm sure Dana White is not thinking about making sure Bellator gets some of the value.
You know? Like, he's trying to conquer and dominate, and
Riley: Sure
brandon mc: that's been a, that's been a winning strategy. So
Riley: Yeah Comcompetitor is different than than the people you're working with correct So sure
brandon mc: I mean, well, it, it doesn't have to be. Like, I, I think there's... And this is another Gary Vee thing. There's multiple ways to win, right? Like, there's, I'm gonna, uh, if I want the biggest building in town, there's a couple of ways I could do that. I [00:52:00] could rip your building down to the, like, to where there's nothing left, make sure that your building never gets very big, and then in order to win, I don't have to build a very big building.
Or you can build your building as big as you want, and I'll build mine bigger both end up with me having the biggest building in town. But because you were a strong opposition, a strong competitor, it forced me to be better, you know? So there's like small scarcity mindset thinking, and there's abundance thinking, and both can end up with you having the biggest building in town.
It's just which, which kind of victory do you want, you know?
Riley: Yeah Wwell sure When you're when we're talking about uh you know beating the competitor yeah there's definitely mmore ways What I'm what I'm talking about is this this relationship between c two colleagues um when
brandon mc: different than bus- that's different than just business. That's, that's like an [00:53:00] overarching how to live your life kind of idea, which I,
Riley: That's
brandon mc: know
Riley: where I'm going with that yeah Do you um Cause a again you've done that very well right I I watch you interact with people and I I was I was around for the PGF 7 event and and I see kind of the network going on there And honestly I'm I'm kind of in awe of it man You you do such a good job at the the um just the relational aspect of things And I know having been there and being a businessman myself not everything's going smoothly all the time
brandon mc: Yeah.
Riley: controversy with colleagues right There's controversy with ref calls there's cameras not working or there's network connection crap going on and you know there uh uh there's all kinds of things happening there but you kept a cool head and I I I watch it happen and I'm like Man this dude knows how to in times of pressure still maintain that relational aspect of things And how did you develop that I mean that Was that was that just part of your nature or [00:54:00] is that something you've you've put time into into really
brandon mc: I think,
Riley: curating
brandon mc: I think it's both. Like, I think it's my nature a little bit at least.
Riley: Mmhmm
brandon mc: Uh, but I f- but definitely I've, I've learned to, uh, work under pressure. And I've l- and I've also learned that I work better with my back against the wall in some ways. Like, when the lights are on, I do better work, you know?
Like, if it's just me and m- maybe nobody's ever gonna see the results or it's not gonna matter to anyone else, you know, I'll take my time. You know, maybe I don't even... Maybe I just start working on it and drop it and come back to it six months later or whatever. But I like, I like a deadline. I like pressure.
I like to know that, uh, that it could all go wrong and it could all burn to the ground. I guess that's crazy. I guess that's crazy when I hear myself say it out loud, but [00:55:00] yeah, I think I do better work. And so I've just constantly tried to put myself in situations where I'm like... I think that's where I get my best work is, like, at the edge of my current capabilities and beyond.
Like, okay, I'm all the way out here, dude, butt in the wind, you know what I'm saying? Like, I think that's where, that's where, I mean, that's where you grow. Like, how are you gonna grow if you don't push yourself and test yourself? And the only way to do that is to take a risk at this could all burn to the ground, and I could, I could fail miserably.
Um, and sometimes it does.
Riley: Well sometimes it does I try You don't get anywhere without some bumps and bruises right
[00:56:00] [00:57:00]
brandon mc: Yeah, I mean, that's, that's it. You have to, like, spend time on the edges to grow. Like, it, it, it has to, it-- There has to be the potential for it to go wrong in order for it to go right.
Riley: Otherwise
brandon mc: make sense?
Riley: right
brandon mc: Well, yeah. I mean, like, dude, you know this thing in jujitsu... I, I hate this, by the way, this thing where it's like, "Oh, in jujitsu you never lose, you only win or learn."
That's the dumbest... I, I can't stand that. Uh, and I, I understand what they're trying to say, like, but dude, if you can't lose, how can you win? Like, you have to dare greatly in order... Like, without the... Like, you remember the Wide World of Sports? Like in-- We're, we're old people, so you'll remember. "ABC's Wide World of Sports: The thrill of victory [00:58:00] and the agony of defeat."
Like, without the possibility for the agony of defeat, there is no thrill of victory. The victory is empty. It's meaningless. It, in fact, it doesn't exist. Without black, there is no white. Without the pain of loss, there can be no thrill of victory. Like, the agony of defeat, you have to, like, be friends with that part, I think, at least the way I see the world.
Like I, I... It's not that I crave the agony of defeat, but I have to be okay with, with sitting with it
Riley: It's uh it is something that uh gets in your blood right It's I feel as you're saying it I'm going Those are the times when I get excited about something is when I'm I'm like nervous
brandon mc: I,
Riley: do it
brandon mc: dude, I need sweaty palms.
Riley: come together Yeah
brandon mc: I can't, I can't grab and hold onto anything unless my palms are sweaty
Riley: I just love it so much So we go into [00:59:00] this I Brandon something I've talked about on here occasionally on this podcast is this idea that um that leaders get there first and every time I've had a deep hearttoheart conversation with a leader a cup of coffee there's always that there's always that like they feel like an imposter that imposter syndrome like um How do you go about dealing with that part Because you're you're doing some stuff that I feel is is pioneering in the in the jujitsu world and you're gonna have your naysayers man and there's that there's always that that imposter syndrome is there it's do you cope with it
brandon mc: Or you just do it anyway? Uh, it's not, it's not, like, complex, honestly. It's... And it's not, like, um, a lot of deep thought that goes into it. It's just I don't know, man. I believe [01:00:00] in what I'm trying to do, otherwise I wouldn't be trying to do it. Like, if I didn't think it was a good idea, I would do something else, right?
Riley: Sure
brandon mc: So if you don't believe in it or if you think it's corny or you think it's that I'm a fraud or whatever, I, yeah, sometimes I do too. Like, yeah, well, here I go. I don't know. I, I don't, I just don't put a lot of thought into that part of it, to be honest with you. Like, it's not that I don't feel... Especially with some of the things I get to do and some of the people I get to spend time with, I definitely feel like, "How?"
But it's, it's not really imposter syndrome, I would say. It's more like, "Dude, how did my country butt end up here? This is..." Like me and Keelan, he works in the office with me every day, sometimes we'll just look at each other. I feel like we say this at least once a day. We'll just look at each other and go, "Dude, this is crazy."
And
Riley: Yeah
brandon mc: yeah, it just is. It, it is crazy. But, you know, [01:01:00] just if I didn't believe in what I was trying to do, I'd do something else. So it just has to be crazy. It just has to... I have to feel, again, you're operating at the edge of your capabilities. Dude, sometimes you're gonna go out there and get submitted.
That's just what it is. Yeah, some, imposter, yeah, sometimes I am an imposter. I'm trying to do things that I'm not capable of doing and that I don't know how to do. Like, I guess that's just the way it is. It's not imposter syndrome. Sometimes I am an imposter. Like, I'm trying to do something that I don't know how to do and that nobody has done yet or that, you know?
Like, that's, yeah, I'm, I'm trying to be an imposter, I guess
Riley: That's a that's a great uh viewpoint Matt I love it cause you're You know it's that that's a common phrase I've heard guys say is like I'm just making it up as I go And I'm like well as I process over the years I'm like that's the nature of leadership You're the first one to get there so yeah you're gonna be making it up as you [01:02:00] go
brandon mc: Yeah, but what I'm not making up as I g- I, I might be making up the details as I go
Riley: Right
brandon mc: in some, sometimes. What I'm not making up is how to, how I treat people as I go or where I'm trying to go. I'm not making that up. That was very intentional. That was thought out, like again, begin with the end in mind. But how you do things a lo- how you do things is, matters way more than the strategy that you use to do them.
Does that make sense? Like, the culture of your,
Riley: makes sense to
brandon mc: the culture of your business matters way more than your business strategy. Like, that's a Peter Drucker quote, "Culture eats strategy for breakfast." And a- again, man, if you're committed to doing something all the time for a long time, the strategy will develop itself, you know?
And the only way to do something all the time for a long time is [01:03:00] to have the right culture and to have the right principles, like foundationally laying the thing, otherwise you're gonna quit. If the culture sucks, you're, uh, you're not happy, you're not gonna do it all the time. You might do it for a long time, but you won't do it all the time for a long time.
Or you might do it for a long time. You, you get what I'm saying? Like, y- you won't do it all the time for a long time if you're not happy. So you, you gotta, the culture has to be good. Like, your, your intention and your vision has to be Firm. And if that's the case, then, uh, in order... Dude, if I didn't... You have to be an imposter to get where you wanna go.
Like, dude, okay, Alan Belcher, Alan Belcher one time. Do you know Alan Belcher?
Riley: I know who he is yeah
brandon mc: Okay. He's a really close friend of mine. He's been a very important mentor in my life. I love Alan Belcher. [01:04:00] So, uh, I don't know, I don't even think I was a black belt at this point. I might've been a brown belt still, but somewhere in that range.
I, I don't know when it was, but, uh... So Alan is a old country boy. He's, uh, I think he was the number two middleweight in the world at one time in the UFC. Just, and if you ever watch this, the old matches, for those of you that are listening, there's an old match in the UFC with Rousimar Palhares and Alan Belcher.
And Palhares was, like, the scariest dude in the UFC. He was ripping everybody's legs to shreds, and Alan goes in and gets into a leg lock exchange with him and beats him in the leg lock exchange, takes his back, s- almost has him in a twister, ends up knocking, uh, getting the TKO, and Alan wins the fight.
Anyway, um, Alan is also a, he's a old country boy, but he's a genius [01:05:00] businessman, dude, a genius businessman, and he was running a very successful school, very successful school down in Biloxi, and with multiple satellite locations. Just smart dude. And so, um, I was learning from him, and I'm seeing the success he's having with his school, and I was like, "You know what, dude?
I'm gonna run me a million dollar school too, Alan. I'm gonna make a million dollars with my school." And he looked at me dead in my face, dude, and he goes, "You're not the kind of man that can have a million dollar school." And I was like, "Oh my God! Oh, Alan, you're killing me. That's like the meanest thing anybody's ever said to me."
And he goes, "No, no, no, no, don't mishear what I'm saying. If you were the kind of man that could have a million dollar school, you would have one already. In order to do that, you're gonna have to become the next version of yourself."
Riley: Oh man
brandon mc: [01:06:00] And so he wasn't insulting me, he was encouraging me to become the next thing that I needed to be in order to achieve the goal that I wanted to achieve.
So I say all that to say, of course I have imposter syndrome. I'm trying to become the thing that I want. I'm trying to build the thing that doesn't exist. Like, if you don't have imposter syndrome, then you're not, I feel like you're not challenging yourself or you're not trying to build something or you're not trying to go somewhere Like,
Riley: My friend
brandon mc: we're gonna take a road, we're gonna take a road trip, dude."
Uh, well, like, I'm not there yet. So, so the whole time I'm like, I'm trying to reach the goal, you know? Like, I can't be like, "Yeah, dude, I live in, uh, I'm a guy from Dallas," or whatever. Like, I've just gotta get on the road and move to Dallas. Like, it's gonna take us a little while to get there. I don't know why I moved to Dallas in that [01:07:00] terrible example, but moving on.
Riley: That's uh that's such a beautiful thing man that again I think that's where all people who are gogetter high achiever type people are struggling with that same thing at some point in their journey
brandon mc: Yeah, but don't struggle with it, dude. Like, that's, that's part of it. Like, what do you... I don't, I don't understand the s- the struggle with it. Like, what did you th- what did you think was gonna happen? That you were just gonna flip a switch and be the thing and have the thing? Like, that's, I don't know, that's like little kid thinking
Riley: Good Yeah that's uh You think life's not gonna fight back in some some way
brandon mc: Yeah, dude. If, if it was, like, why wouldn't everybody just have everything they want if, if it was just easy to flip the switch? Like, of course you- Dude, [01:08:00] of course you're gonna feel like an imposter. You're trying to be something that you're not yet
Riley: That is so good man You're gonna make an easy clip out of that one Brandon um You're juggling a lot of things these days right You've got you've got a merch brand you've got a school you've got the PGF you're doing the commentating for the UFC You've got all these things you're juggling you do it man You got a family All those all that comes into play How do how do you go about prioritizing your time
brandon mc: Uh, I just kind of quit sleeping
No, I'm just kidding. But, but I mean, uh, yeah, I definitely have a lot going on. Um, I have a lot going on, but they all kinda like... They're [01:09:00] all related at the same time. You know what I'm saying? So, like, one grows the others in a lot of ways. So, like, as my personal brand grows, the PGF grows. As the PGF grows, my personal brand grows.
As my school grows, my personal brand grows. You know what I'm saying?
Riley: Mmhmm
brandon mc: And, uh, I've definitely, like, have had to, like you s- you mentioned, oh, you're UFC BJJ commentator. I'm actually not. I had to kill that one. Like, I just don't have time to do that, so I had to drop that one. Like, generally, if people call me to do a seminar, I, I just, "Sorry, man, I'm not gonna be able to do it."
Um, you know, but I c- I could make way more money if I would just focus on doing those kinda things. Like, if I just... Listen, dude, if I just did my website and just focus on my website and [01:10:00] seminars, I would make way more money, way more. Those are way more profitable, but that's not... I don't know. That's not at the edge of my capabilities.
That's in my current capabilities. Like, that's not, it doesn't excite me the same way. You know what I mean? Like, I wanna do those things. I wanna have those things, but I wanna f- I wanna leave jujitsu in a better place than where I found it. You know what I'm saying? And I'm not gonna do that by just enriching myself.
So my idea is, uh, that I wanna build the PGF into a real pro league. And so, like, I wanna have something for the next generation, and the g- not just the next generation, the generation after that. And then when I'm dead and gone, I want these guys making real money and real salaries, you know? Not just the athletes, the staff, the podcasters that cover it, the [01:11:00] content creators around it.
I want people to build up businesses around the business. Like, a, uh, this PGF thing, like, the NFL is a whole economy, a whole industry, a whole ecosystem. It's not a one-weekend tournament with a couple of guys running a tournament like that. So, like, when we started with the idea of the PGF, we're like, "Oh, man."
Like, you look at the landscape of jujitsu, like, we're gonna have to build this entire thing from scratch. Like, none of this exists. And so, yeah, it's been a... Dude, it's, it's a lot of work. It's crazy
Riley: It thrills me man to to watch um partly because I've built several things from scratch right And so I I I understand I understand what goes into something like that when you've got a Cause you're you're changing the tide of a of a fairly developed ship already that you're you're you're trying to steer this thing that's been [01:12:00] cruising along a certain way for quite a long time and and now you're bringing this kinda new thing into it Um
brandon mc: Yeah, kinda. Kinda. I also don't feel that,
Riley: other sports
brandon mc: I also don't feel that way at all, though. Like, I'm not necessarily trying to change the way that UFC BJJ does their thing. I really don't even consider that we're doing the same thing as those guys. You know what I'm saying? Like, like you guys, like I don't, I don't wanna change ADCC.
I like ADCC. But the thing that I have in mind is, doesn't look like that. You know what I'm saying? Like go enjoy. Like yeah, and, and please, I want UFC BJJ and ADCC and CJI, I want these things to get as big as possible. The bigger those things get, that's just like more fuel to the fire on what I'm trying to do.
But what I'm trying to do is like not really even related. It's only related to those things because it's jujitsu. You know what I'm saying? I'm not trying to [01:13:00] change jujitsu. I love jujitsu. I'm trying to create something new for jujitsu. Does that make sense?
Riley: That's what I mean Yes Yes it's it's it's such a cool thing cause that was that was one of the things on my list to ask you was just about It's easy when we're in the business mindset to view anyone who comes along that's doing a similar thing as a competitor
brandon mc: Nah.
Riley: there's this whole the tide lifts all ships thing right Where the more popularity another event gets the more popularity the sport gets which then Y you mentioned it before with these things that feed the other things You've got all these little ventures going but they're all related it's the same thing man When Craig Jones event took off right We were all excited about that It was it was pushing jujitsu higher You mentioned ADCC and IBJJF These are other uh And the UFC now having
brandon mc: EBI EBI the grandfather of them all to me. Like I feel like Eddie and Vic don't get enough credit, dude, [01:14:00] for what they did for the sport. I feel like they kind of like, we should all be like, "Thank you guys for like helping to establish the vision of what could be possible," you know?
Riley: Oh man, that guy Eddie's been a pioneer in this sport. What a guy, man.
brandon mc: Yeah, Eddie's, Eddie's the man. And Vi- Vic's done a ... I mean, Eddie gets ... His name's on the thing, and he's the, the face and all, and like, so Eddie gets a lot of the credit, and he should. But I feel like Vic doesn't get, Victor Davila, he doesn't get enough of the credit for, um, what they've built over there.
Those guys ... And man, they've been super good to me. Uh, they've put me on game over and over and over again. I definitely wouldn't be able to, um, do a lot of the things that I've been able to do without those guys. What up, dog? My boy Keelan walking up in here. This is the [01:15:00] real genius behind what we do. Uh, and I appreciate all the nice things you had to say about me and about the PGF, but I would be remiss if I didn't give propers to this fine gentleman here, Keelan Lawler, co-founder, and also
Oh, go ahead. Go ahead and say something. Oh, no, I was just gonna say hey.
Riley: What's up?
brandon mc: That's how he does. He just walks in and says hey, and then goes to work. You know what I mean? That's ... He's a,
Riley: it
brandon mc: he's the man. And, uh, while I'm at it, dude, let me also shout out Zoltan and Heather, man. Like, we would've never... I don't know that we
I mean, I guess eventually we would've probably gotten somewhere with this, but Zo and Heather coming in has been... I mean, they're amazing, dude. Heather being tied in with the Gracie family. She's a bulldog, dude. She's a [01:16:00] bulldog. She's ready to, she's ready to conquer at every turn, so she's a, she's a real big part of what we're doing.
And then Zo is just such an incredible, like, creative... He's the most creative genius that I've ever met in my life, and he, he's like a builder of worlds and, like, vision and starting with this crazy idea and then, like, finding ways to work towards it. Like, and also, like, a great businessman. Heather, good business mind as well.
Like, I'm just really lucky, I guess, to have been surrounded by so many good people, and to be able to work with them so closely has been... I don't know, man. Even if all of this thing burns to the ground tomorrow, I'm gonna have so many cool stories to tell.
Riley: It's such a neat thing, man, 'cause you're, you obviously value the people around you for the, the giftings they have. You know, it's, it's not even that, uh, [01:17:00] that, that almost sounds moochie to me that should, to say it that way. But that's what it is. They, they bring strengths that you don't have, right?
brandon mc: Yeah, of course
Riley: to the party that, that you weren't born with and, and haven't, haven't developed.
Such a, such a cool thing,
brandon mc: Assembling a strong team is, like, so important, dude. How can anybody get anything great done totally by themselves? Dude, that's just not the way anything works. Alexander the Great, like, when he died and it was all over, those guys split out into-- and made their own dynasties, you know?
Riley: Yeah
brandon mc: Genghis Khan, great conqueror, but he had to have Jebe and the arrow by his side, you know what I'm saying?
I don't know. I, I... Sorry, that's, uh, kinda history dorky. Uh, man, sometimes I'll catch myself saying some dorky stuff, and I'm like, "Brandon, stop. Stop. Don't do that. You're just dorking out." So I'm just gonna stop right there
Riley: Well, dude, talk about casting this vision, right? Because you've, you've had your team small at first, growing over time. You're [01:18:00] fr- you know, from the beginning, right? From PGF One, Keelan out there on the mats filming, himself. Um, how have you motivated this, Brandon? 'Cause, 'cause whenever you're starting up a new venture like that, there's no money involved, right? This is all, it's a, it's a, it's a passion project. So how do you motivate your team when you're in the beginnings of that?
brandon mc: Um, well, you don't have a team in the beginning. Like, you're gonna have to do... You don't. There's no team. There's just you and an idea. So you're gonna have to cast the vision and then give people a reason to believe in the vision, and that's gonna start with clarity of, of mind, clarity of vision, like w- with yourself, and then you're gonna [01:19:00] need to do enough work that they believe that they're not gonna do the work.
They're not gonna be by themselves. So, like, uh, you're gonna have to lay down a track record of strong vision and hard work that you did, and if that, if that doesn't happen, then nobody's gonna jump on board and try to help. But if they understand where the ship is going or where we want the ship to go, and they see that you're willing to row the boat, then they'll help you row
Riley: Brandon, we're, we're into this podcast now here about an hour and 20 minutes roughly, normally about this time I switch to some, some other questions that are a little more kind of light duty, a little more get to know Brandon. Can we, can we transition into that?
brandon mc: Yeah, sure
Riley: Awesome, man. Well, dude, this is, uh, this is called the Go Earn [01:20:00] Your Salt podcast, and when you hear that term, go earn your salt, what does it mean to you?
brandon mc: Uh, I guess like, uh, I mean, maybe what we just said, like Talking about other people rowing the boat, like you can't have them row the boat for you, and they're definitely not gonna row the boat until they see that, that you're willing to row the boat, until they understand where they're going. So probably I would say something like that, tie it back into the
Riley: Beautiful. Beautiful. Brent, outside of, uh, outside of jujitsu, what's your favorite pastime?
brandon mc: Um, music for sure
Riley: Is guitar your only
brandon mc: Or NBA, or the NBA. I love the NBA. I love basketball. I wish I could play basketball. I was not, I was not blessed with the necessary requirements
Riley: Oh my gosh. Dude, what's, uh, what's something quirky about [01:21:00] you that people don't know?
brandon mc: Oh, I don't know. Keelan, that's a, that's a good, uh, that's a good question for Keelan. Keelan, what's something quirky about me that people don't know?[01:22:00]
Riley: You have no idea how excited for this answer I am
brandon mc: Yeah. Here, you come, come, come here, Keelan. You, you answer that question.
Riley: I'm excited to hear
brandon mc: It's, it's hard to answer that, uh, for myself, you know? Here you go, Keelan. Let's see. Fun fact. He doesn't like getting dirty, like at all. Like if there's... You're, you're like, "Hey, let's go do..." Fill in the blank with something that even may get dirt, like inside the fingernails, th- he's not even gonna consider that thing.
He's out. It may be super fun, it may be a li- a once in a lifetime experience. He's not going because he doesn't like getting dirty. And that kind of translates into how he does his food as well. Like how he's gonna eat food, if it require, like, oh, you're gonna get sauced up with the barbecue ribs, he's gonna...
He's doing something with a fork and a knife[01:23:00]
Riley: All right. That's, that's wonderful
brandon mc: It's unfortunate
Riley: It takes a lot of fun out of things.
brandon mc: Dude, it's 100% true though. It's 100% accurate
Riley: So you're not working on your own car, huh?
brandon mc: No, dude, that's why, that's why I try to make money. I need somebody else... Somebody loves working on cars, but it, uh, let them do it
Riley: I love it, man. I love it. Brandon, what's your favorite naughty food?
brandon mc: Oh, I like most of the naughty foods. Yeah, most of them. Pizza, dude, pizza. Easy, easy call. Homemade ice cream. My gran- my granny, uh, God rest her soul, granny, um, home... She had a homemade vanilla ice cream recipe that is the greatest thing on the planet. Oh, yeah, that's the best, the best answer, dude. [01:24:00] You put it in the freezer, and then I take it out of the freezer, and I pour it all into bowls, and I stick it in the big freezer and let it get hard overnight, so you gotta dig it with a spoon, so it's almost like you need a shovel.
That's what I like the best. That's my favorite thing. I wish I had some right now
Riley: My family bought me a
brandon mc: Keelan hates that, by the way. He hates that I like hard ice cream. He wants like soup ice cream, dude. I'm like, "Nah, man, that's a milkshake. I don't wanna have to do the work for it. I like that, and I'll eat the whole gallon, dude."
Riley: That's right.
brandon mc: That's terrible. That's terrible, but I love it
Riley: do you have a nickname you grew up with?
brandon mc: No. I didn't have a nickname until Eddie started calling me B-Mac. I was just always Brandon
Riley: And you got, you got BMAC, but BMAC doesn't show up without sunglasses and a special hat,
brandon mc: yeah. B-Mac, Brandon and B-Mac are two cha- are two different characters. Brandon is, is Brandon. B-Mac is [01:25:00] the shades and the, you know what I mean?
Riley: I love it. I love it,
brandon mc: Like, people can say, people can say mean things about B-Mac and it doesn't land on Brandon the same way. It might hurt Brandon's feelings. It don't hurt B-Mac's feelings.
Riley: I love it. I love it. Bro, what's the, what's the scariest moment of your life?
brandon mc: I don't know. I can't think of anything crazy scary. Like, just like Keelan was saying about, uh, about how I don't like to get dirty, I don't like to get scared either, dude But I guess I've probably done a lot of things that other people would find scary, but I don't, I don't f- I don't know. Probably things that people, other people would think are scary, I don't think are scary.
Like, uh, what's the number one fear that people have? Yeah, dude, n- not me. [01:26:00] I'll jump up in front of 20,000 people with n- no preparation and no idea what's going on. I don't care. Like, in fact, I like that. I'll, I wanna be the center of attention. But like, um, go skydiving? Dude, no way. No way. I don't, I don't
Riley: been that way where you're, you're, you're just good with people? My youngest son is that way, man. He can stand up in
brandon mc: Oh, yeah, I've always been like that.
Riley: fright
brandon mc: Yeah, no, I've, I've... Well, I say I've always been like that. As long as I can remember. Dude, I got a bad concussion when I was, like, 12 years old, and I think that that's when it really started. That's when the personality shifted a little bit. That's what my mom always says.
She s- she says I used to just sit under the table and, like, read. Th- this is crazy dork. I don't think I've ever really told this on a podcast. My mom says that I used to... So I was obsessed with [01:27:00] books, like, super early. My mom would always read to me, and so I got into... When I was, like, little, little, I would read.
So, uh, I would just grab the encyclopedia. She bought me a set of encyclopedias, and I would just get the encyclopedia, and I would sit under the table and hide from everybody and read the encyclopedia. And she said I didn't talk to anybody. I would just sit under there and read the encyclopedia. And then I got a real bad concussion when I was, like, 12 years old, playing basketball, actually.
And that's probably, that's probably when the, the not being scared of things and, and public speaking probably started right around there.
Riley: Got that part knocked out of you, huh?
brandon mc: Yeah. Now I can't read at all. I don't even know how
Riley: man. what, uh, would you say is the best advice you've ever received?
brandon mc: Do it anyway. That was Alan Belcher. [01:28:00] I, uh, I was, I can't even remember what the specific thing was, but I was like, "Oh, I don't know how." He's like, "Just do it anyway. Do it anyway." "I don't know how." "Do it anyway." He would always say that, "Do it anyway." "I don't know how." "Do it anyway." "I'm scared." "Do it anyway."
Riley: I think there's a lot of good ideas that never got off the ground because people didn't just do it anyways, right? They
brandon mc: Yeah, just do it.
Riley: out at the beginning
brandon mc: Yeah, just do it
Riley: God, that's good, man. You've mentioned, uh, Alan Belcher a few times on here. And who, who's been the, the biggest influence in your life?
brandon mc: My wife
Riley: Hmm.
brandon mc: Yeah, it's been a v- it's been a huge privilege to live my life beside her, to watch and, like, like, glean from her example and the way that she does things. She lives with more excellence and high standards and, uh, than any human that I've ever known. [01:29:00] So, uh, that's a super easy answer for me. It's definitely Lindsay
Riley: That's amazing, man. I love to hear that 'cause I, I think a good, good marriage is based on two people who both think they married up, right?
brandon mc: Yeah, well, I don't know if she thinks she married up, but I know I did. 25 years, dude. May 18th was my 25th wedding anniversary. It's crazy. We started, we started dating in high school, so been with the same girl since I was, uh, 16 years old
Riley: It's amazing.
brandon mc: Crazy
Riley: that was just about the same time my wife and I got together too. So high school,
brandon mc: Yeah, back in 1964. That's what it feels like.
Riley: You'll have to work on your math there, but
brandon mc: Yeah, well, I can't read, can't do math either
Riley: Brandon, what's a, what's an item on your bucket list?
brandon mc: Oh, I don't really have any. Dude, I've done everything I set out to do. I'm just [01:30:00] cashing bonuses now. Everything that I wanted to do that actually mattered to me, I got it done. I'm just, like, collecting cool experiences and trying to do things that are outside of my current capabilities now. But it's more about just, uh, pushing as far as I can for everybody else at this point.
I don't know. I don't, I don't really have anything that, um... Yeah, I'm, I'm pretty, I'm pretty content. If I don't get to do any other cool things, uh, I'm, I'm pretty, I'm pretty content, man. But I do wanna-- I guess I wanna push for everybody else. I guess I wanna... Well, yeah, but I mean, like, I've... Dude, like, I have a happy marriage.
My children have graduated high school. Both of my kids have graduated high school. I have my school. I got a third-degree black belt [01:31:00] from Eddie. I got my black belt in the gi from Carlos.
Uh, built multiple businesses. Uh, like, we built the PGF. Like, we're trying to scale it now, but it, it worked. Like, we did it. We did the thing. Like, it's smaller than it's gonna ultimately be, but now it's just about pushing and pushing, right? But, like, I don't know. I've toured with a rock band. Like, I don't know, man.
I'm, I'm good to go, dog. I'm good to go. I just wanna do something awesome.
Riley: that, right?
brandon mc: I just wanna do awesome for, things for my people now
Riley: Beautiful. Brandon, what is your, your favorite book of all time? Something you think everyone should read
brandon mc: I can only pick one?
Riley: No. Heck no, you can't pick... You, you can pick as many as you want
brandon mc: Okay, I'll give a, I'll give a couple of answers. Like, it'd be hard for me to distill it down to [01:32:00] one. That's like being like, "What is your favorite movie?" Well, w- what, like a comedy or do you want a comedy? Do you want a drama? Do you want a documentary? Let me give you one from each category. All right, so probably the, my favorite book to read and to like, that like m- moves me is The Book of Five Rings.
That's my favorite. So I would, I feel like that's essential reading for any human, The Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi. Um, there's a book called The Art of Learning by Josh Waitzkin that I really love. Um, The 4-Hour Workweek by Tim Ferriss. That's another great one. Those are probably my... Yeah, those are my three.
If I... I can nu- I can narrow it down to those three. Those are my three
Riley: How you doing on that four-hour workweek?
brandon mc: Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. [01:33:00] I don't have a four-hour workweek, but the principles of The 4-Hour Workweek were instrumental in... Like, dude, I don't do it the way he does it, but, like, that was crucial. Like, to me, I don't, I don't want a four-hour workweek, dude. I want a 80-hour workweek. I like to work. The version of Brandon I like the best is the working busy version, you know?
But the principles of the four-hour, yeah, you need to... If... Did you read it?
Riley: I, it's been a long time. It's probably been 10, 12 years ago that I read it, yeah
brandon mc: Oh, yeah. That's been... I mean, I've probably been--
Riley: again
brandon mc: I probably read that when I was, like, 23 years old, which, yeah, a long, long time ago when I was 23 years old, it feels like. But yeah, it's not about having a four-hour workweek and working less. It's about, um... Well, like, the thing, he kind of opens with this. He's like, "You don't want a million dollars.
You want what you would [01:34:00] do if you had a million dollars." That's the important part of the book
Riley: Yeah. It's, it's such an interesting thing, man. You said you liked the bi- the, the version of Brandon who's the busy working version the best. Um, yeah, I got an experience here a few years back where my other business, you know, I've owned it for almost two decades and built that into a pretty tidy little system.
And I was in that mode of working the four-hour workweek, and it was driving me crazy 'cause I was so bored.
brandon mc: Yeah, what else are you gonna do?
Riley: yeah, so I started SALT, right? And and then the podcast and it... I, I so hear you there 'cause I, that just funner to be busy
brandon mc: Yeah, just I like that version of myself the best. I feel like I can do the most good in the world that way. I can do the most good for my family that way. Like I definitely have to be present and available to my people, right? So I can't sacrifice that. But like as a [01:35:00] man, like that's a hard balance to walk.
You know? Your val-- A lot of your value as a man comes from being a provider, you know. And, uh, being able to walk that balance of being a provider and a nurturer and being available, that's a, it's a tough balance to walk, but it's, um... Being a, being a capable provider is part of that. And so I like to work.
It makes me feel fulfilled. It makes me feel good. I just wanna work hard on something that produces value for the people that I care about. But if I've got something that produces value for the people I care about, I'm willing to work really, really, really hard and really long hours on it
Riley: That's amazing, man. Brandon, where can you be found out there in the world?
brandon mc: Oh, my personal brands are [01:36:00] brandonmc.ninja or BrandonMCNinja, depending on which platform you're on. YouTube and Instagram are really the only ones I use for my personal brand. And then the PGF World is another good one. And me and Keelan are live pretty much every day on Kick these days, kick.com/pgfworld.
So if you wanna get the behind the scenes or if you wanna dive into the mysteries of what kind of lunch we eat or whatever, then you can find us there. But yeah, the behind the scenes, the first access for what's going on with PGF, definitely kick.com/pgfworld is the best way to get all of that stuff right now.
For those that might be interested in becoming an athlete on the PGF, pgf.world. We've got the qualifiers coming up, starting July 25th in Colorado. August 8th, we got it coming up in Carolina. Eight [01:37:00] teams in the PGF now.
Riley: Eight
brandon mc: to eight teams. That's right. So it's growing, it's growing fast. Uh, I expect that we're gonna, we're gonna have a, uh, very, very, um, remarkable season coming up.
I think it-- Well, I think that the things that we're gonna do are gonna... I think they're gonna shock a lot of the jujitsu community with what we're able to do
Riley: It's so fun. I, uh, yeah, like I said, I've been a fan since season one.
brandon mc: Appreciate that, by the way.
Riley: going with this,
brandon mc: Yeah, it's kinda, kinda crazy looking at season one versus where it is now. It's nuts. Old country boy.
Riley: grow, huh?
brandon mc: Yeah, old country boy out of his element out here
Riley: Well, my friend, listen, I appreciate you coming on here, dude. I just, I feel like, uh, y- you've got my wheels turning so much just in the, in the, in the [01:38:00] conversation that I, I feel almost rambly, see, when I'm ask- trying to ask questions, and it's, it's, uh, it's bringing out that side of me where I will go full nerd off of just one phrase you said, and then I'm distracted in the, in, in that line of thought and have to try to bring it back to the conversation.
So, um, yeah, apologize about for some of my fumbling here, but dude, I was super honored by having you on here and just glad to have you as a friend, man
brandon mc: Thanks, man. I appreciate it. I'll probably see you. You gonna be at Carlos's thing in, what is it, October?
Riley: I don't know if I'll be at the October one. We'll be at the
brandon mc: What?
Riley: for sure, but
brandon mc: October. Be the one in October. The Spring one already happened, right?
Riley: but we've got family birthdays and a lot of crap going on right in that
brandon mc: Nah, just cancel your family, dude, and come. Come hang out, come hang out with me. They're out.
Riley: if I can get there, I will, but
brandon mc: All right, word
Riley: I'm not making any promises here. But
brandon mc: Blackie Belchie. Yeah, dude, we got to roll at the last one, right? We rolled at the last one that we were at
Riley: so we were, were, [01:39:00] uh, you were taking it easy on me so you didn't break your rib on my
brandon mc: Oh yeah, you were there when I got my, my black belt from Carlos, the gi black belt. That was rough, dude. I broke my rib like whatever, like a week or s- six days or something like that before I went out there. That was rough, dog. I couldn't even take a deep breath, and I had to fight all you guys. It was terrible.
Riley: Well then, yeah, then you start picking with me and I'm like, "Man, this is... I don't, I don't wanna be responsible for anything here," so.
brandon mc: You know, I had to get my body moving
Riley: I love it. Well, hey, one more thing, just a little, little off the subject, but, you know, we, we had talked at one point just in a personal conversation about the, goals, right?
I was about to get my black belt, and I called you saying, "Hey, man, when you got yours, did you go through a time afterwards of kind of a almost a depression?" 'Cause it's been a decade of pursuing this goal or more. For me, it was 13 years. But, know, hit that [01:40:00] point, and I called you kinda almost fearful of that letdown after the, after hitting that goal, and you gave me some really good advice, dude.
I wanna tell you, I just appreciated it because I've, I've been able to just kinda refocus that toward the next thing and not... I didn't really experience that dip, and
brandon mc: Good. What did I tell you?
Riley: man.
brandon mc: What did I tell you?
Riley: start, start moving on to the next thing, start studying the next part I wanna study and just keep having a project, basically. You know, keep, keep focused on a different part of your game and just the, the consistent study of that. And it really helped get through that 'cause I, I was genuinely concerned that that, you know, 13-year goal, I would hit that and then now what? And have that letdown and I just appreciated your input there
brandon mc: All right. Sounds like I gave good advice. I'm happy with that. Sometimes people will be like, "Brandon, you told me something and it really helped me." And then I'll be like, "What did I tell you?" And then when they repeat it back to me, I'm like, "Oh my God, that was dumb. I wish I'd have said something else." [01:41:00] But that one, that one sounded okay.
Riley: We could probably pull a whole nother podcast on that, man. Uh, you know, they say that the student hasn't learned, or you, you haven't taught until the student has learned, and yeah, sometimes that's, uh, that's true. I think I've conveyed an idea to a student, and then I find out that their interpretation of my idea was completely whacked. I had another black belt in our school come up to me recently, and he goes, he goes, "Hey, man, somebody said you said this, and I know you didn't say it, so what did you actually say?" It was that conversation of, where do you actually put your leg here in this, in this, this technique? You know, it was, it was great.
brandon mc: I mean, sometimes I did say it though, and I'm just smarter now than when I said it before, you know?
Riley: You've learned since. Love it
brandon mc: Yeah. I mean, think about how you used to do an arm bar the right way. You knew how to do an arm bar, but now you don't do it that way
Riley: Oh my gosh, and, and get all dogmatic about how
brandon mc: Uh-huh
Riley: learned it is the [01:42:00] only right way.
brandon mc: Yeah
Riley: It's so great, man. Brandon, go earn your salt, my friend
brandon mc: See a dog