Joe Spinell: , [00:00:00] the sedentary lifestyle is the gateway to everything else bad that we do, right? It's the gateway to every other disease that's gonna come, come around. If people would just simply move. There are so many things that trickle out from just moving. When you think about, um, even going out and having a beer and you're having with your friends or eating hot wings, it's kind of a relaxed kind of, um, relaxing, right?
When you think about coming home and o bag, o bag of chips with a soda, it's relaxing. But when you're active and you're moving a, you don't always have time for those things. You know, I'm not gonna go out drinking. I go wake up early in the morning and go meet my buddies for a workout. You think about replenishing your body with healthier things, it just naturally comes along.
I wish we could do a study. I wish we could do a study where we take random people and have them walk two miles a day and see what their choices are later on that day.
[00:01:00]
Riley: Today we have, uh, Joe Spinel, the man himself on the podcast. Uh, Joe and I met through a mutual friend, uh, Tim Freeman. And, uh,
Joe Spinell: Yeah.
Riley: be on here. I
didn't tell you that, um,
Joe Spinell: Oh, that's awesome.
Riley: gonna be on here in a
Joe Spinell: Yeah.
Riley: So I'm, I'm,
super excited to talk to Tim, but, uh, yeah, I got interested as, uh, Joe and I have had conversations over time and his expertise in coaching, and, uh, Joe's a high level coach and he studies the, the art of coaching.
And so, um, we're gonna talk about that today. Joe, welcome to the show, man.
Joe Spinell: Yeah. Thank you so much, man. I appreciate being on.
Riley: Yeah, no, it's, I'm super honored. Um, [00:02:00] tell me, tell me what life was like, man. Uh, as, as a kid and what was like growing up. Who, who's Joe?
Joe Spinell: Yeah. So, um, I was born in Rochester, New York, and, uh, to a single mom and she met somebody and he took her on out to California. And so, although I was a year in New York and I would return to New York one day, uh, but, uh, with a, from a huge Italian family too. Italian family. We're talking lots of cousins, lots of aunts, lots of aunt uncles, never really got to know them.
Uh, we moved out to California, ended up in San Diego specifically Vista and Oceanside is really, really where I grew up. And, um, you know, we didn't have a lot of money. My dad was a door-to-door shoe salesman, and, uh, my mom worked at a factory where they basically constructed hinges. So if you have, uh, the hinges on your cabinets, that's what she did.
She made those. And, uh, she was proud of it, man. She was proud of having that job and making money, and it wasn't a lot, but, um, they, they did their best to, [00:03:00] to provide, you know, they, they gave me a good, strong work ethic. And my dad always emphasized, uh, education above everything else. My mom did too. She didn't, I think she might have grad, she, I think she finished the ninth grade.
And so she wasn't really a, a highly educated woman, but she definitely had an amazing work, work ethic that I carried into athletics after that.
Riley: You had mentioned, um, off camera that, was it a stepdad or something you had later?
Joe Spinell: yeah, what it was is, I mean, it would be a whole separate, probably psychology podcast that you'd wanna talk about him. But, uh, my, my, my mom had me as a, as a, as a single mom. Um, I guess she was given an ultimatum, get rid of the baby, or I leave. And, uh, she decided, well, I'm gonna keep the baby. So it was about a year.
And then she met my father, who had later on actually officially adopt me. And, uh, he was a door to door shoe salesman at that time. He worked for a [00:04:00] company called Fuller Brush. And so these guys would go door to door selling just all kinds of different products. Everything from soap to, uh, carpet, uh, not carpet, but um, curtains, you name it.
They sold it. It's like a, basically you came around with almost like a Sears catalog would take your order and deliver it. Kind of very old school. And parents were both much older. He actually had three older sons from a previous marriage that were old enough to be my dad. So these are older folks. Um, kinda like growing up with grandparents more than it was.
I mean, my mom was 38 when she had me,
so you can imagine a lot older. Yeah. And, uh, so he, um, met her and I really think he saw like easy target. I see a woman in need who has very little resources and um, kind of just took control of things, moved her away from her family. You can see the kind of pattern here that you always hear about.
And she was stuck with this abusive man, unfortunately for her entire life. And, [00:05:00] uh, yeah, it is what it is. You learn a lot of lessons when you're in a, a abusive type environment. But, uh, I used to always say what? And it made fighting easy for me. You grow up as a very angry kid and you grow up in a situation of physical abuse.
You get into a fight with a kid your age, it's nothing, you know, just a joke, you know? And I have a 250 pound monster waiting for me at home, you know, so it, it's, it's, and I don't say that as a sad story. I say it as even at an early age when I would have a lot of things that I didn't even realize were that bad, my brain somehow made a good thing out of it.
I, I never saw myself as a victim. I never saw myself as a poor me, never wanted to go home. Um, which made going to practice rather easy. Coaches would like, why are you here? Why are you here so late? I wanna go home.
But it was, it was, it was a, it was, it was good. It was good. It gave a, a, a kid with average athletic ability so much more.
'cause I put more [00:06:00] time in than everybody else did. Um, and it was not a conscious decision. It was just, just what I did, you know? And it, it really worked out for me. For my whole life. I mean, I am where I'm at now today because of all those things that happened early on.
Riley: that is a fantastic, um, perspective on that. Man. uh. Yeah, we haven't talked enough to know, but I have a very similar background. Um, it was the other way. It wasn't, it was my real dad, but a stepmom was an alcoholic and abusive. And, and I, but I never thought about it that way the entire time growing up, when I look back I'm like, crap, man.
That's kind of what was going on. But yeah, I
Joe Spinell: Yeah. Yeah.
Riley: similar. Very
similar.
Joe Spinell: it's so funny, like sometimes in my, my, uh, wife will, we have different parenting styles and that can always be an area of conflict for a wife and a husband. Right. And uh, my famous saying to her is, the more you help, the more you hurt. We don't wanna be abusive, but the more that we do, the less [00:07:00] tools these kids are gonna have.
Um, when you take it too far on the other side. Yeah. There's bad things that can happen. Absolutely. Either end of the spectrum is a bad thing. It's just hard being a parent, finding the middle spot. How do I give them enough struggle so they gain skill, but at the same time it's not an abusive situation.
Riley: Gonna carry over the coaching conversation.
Joe Spinell: Yeah,
Riley: right there, what you
Joe Spinell: Yeah, yeah, Absolutely.
Riley: Tell me this, you're, uh, you're in the medical field, you're in Emerge or Emergency Medicine, and what took you that direction?
Joe Spinell: What the, the truth of it is. Something I used to feel was very embarrassing and I wouldn't tell anyone. When people say, why, why are you choosing emergency medicine? Oh, it's the most instant way I can be involved in some of these care. I'm have an innate ability to make quick connections with [00:08:00] people.
It's all bullshit. The truth of it is er, uh, the, the, the old TV show, er, and I would not want to tell anyone that. There's so many things in my life that had that. I took that avenue because of, um, TV, books, comic books, like the reason I wanted to wrestle, the reason why I Gravitated to Wrestling. There was an old game that used to be like Dungeons and Dragons, but it was a Marvel Superheroes.
Okay. I think that was the name of it. Marvel Superheroes and like Dungeons and Dragons, it has a profile for each character. Well, under Captain America, you know what it said, his abilities, Olympic class wrestling. And I said, damn, I wanna wrestle the most ridiculous excuse to be for a kid to be involved in wrestling.
And it's very similar with emergency medicine. I've watched this TV show, er. I was actually in junior college at the time with my wife [00:09:00] and not really knowing what direction I wanted to go in, but knew I had to, I I wanted to be a police officer at that time. And, but it wasn't sold on it. 'cause all the cops that I knew at that time did not have marriages that I wanted to have.
And I knew I was just like them and I'm gonna fall into the same pattern that they're having and I love this woman to death and I don't want that to happen. So I've probably gotta pick something else. And we watch er and these, just these situations and these scenarios and, and they always had to be a doctor in high school.
And it started kind of going in my, and then my wife decided to become a physician assistant. And so we moved away for school for there for that. And then I followed in her footsteps. Um, we both went to RIT, like I said, I go back to Rochester, right. So we were in California. She says You got family in Rochester?
I, yeah, I have family in Rochester. I don't know who they are. Well, we found out who they were real quick. They're a loving, awesome group of people. 'cause it was my mom's side and it was amazing. You know, we started into [00:10:00] medicine, fell in love with it. I followed her footsteps. I became a physician assistant and then went to medical school after that.
But it was all because of that, that TV show, Michael Cretin experienced as a medical student that he put on film. And I said, that's the closest thing to being a superhero I can think of. Gotta do it. And man, lucky enough that it happened.
Riley: That's amazing, man. So let me ask you this, 'cause you, you mentioned the. The things that were just bull crap that you, you kind of, most people will cite like, oh, it's my most direct way to help somebody. Or it's a, you know, these kind of, um,
Joe Spinell: Yeah, I mean the, those were parts of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. I could, you can't come up with a, everybody said, and my oldest is trying to get into medical school now, and I'm like, you can't say you can't ha, he's like, oh, I need to do research. I need to do this, I need to do that. I'm like, no, you don't.
You raised, God. He raised, what, $15,000 from tap cancer out. You [00:11:00] teach the underprivileged children, jiujitsu, you've traveled to the United States competing. You've gained this, this, and this. These are your accomplishments. You're a champion of this tournament. That, that's your story. Everybody does research.
Everybody does a scribe. In the emergency department, you have a completely different story. So you need a different story. Just my story at that time was a little embarrassing. 'cause I, I thought it was until I talked to, you know what? I talked to older er docs and I would ask them, Hey, you know, why did you get involved?
And, and you know what they would tell me? The vast majority of them told me there used to be a TV show called Emergency. It was in the seventies.
Half of it was in,
Riley: of that. Yeah.
Joe Spinell: yeah, half of it was EMS and the other half was in the emergency department. And I said, these guys, these guys I look at as mentors. If they can say that, why am I ashamed of really telling the truth?
Because it seems superficial, it seems like it doesn't have, but I think people underestimate how much books, [00:12:00] music, TV, art, can influence the way we look at things. And it's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with listening to hype music before you go out and fight. So then why do we say it's ridiculous when a kid watches a movie and now wants to be a doctor?
No, that's cool. You know, you put an image in their mind. Yeah.
Riley: But lemme ask you this. So the question then becomes, did it, did it, since you've matured and you've in that field, it eventually become those other things? Because sometimes it's, uh,
Joe Spinell: Yeah. I think it was, yeah, I think that it was a little bit of those things in the beginning for sure. Um, you know, you have to have an innate want to be with people in their worst moment. Um, you have to have some joy out of getting somebody some, you know, um, giving them comfort. And sometimes that's not just physical comfort.
Maybe that's just emotional comfort. We had to tell a lady last, uh, it was a couple nights ago, she's got cancer. [00:13:00] 40, 40 some year old lady. And I was with the resident and I'm saying, we're not, we're, there's nothing that we're gonna do that's gonna bring her physical comfort, but we what we, because I, I let him lead the conversation.
I ended the conversation. We stepped outta the room. I said, Hey, listen, 'cause he's a third, uh, he's second year. He's a second year, so he still has a little bit of time. I said, I didn't wanna step on your toes. I want you, but I want you to hear what I say. And so if you wanna make that a part of your toolbox, then you then awesome.
If you don't like it, then throw it away. And basically what I said to her was that, you know, this is difficult situation, but you're at the best place that you can be. Fantastic doctors, people that are gonna take wonderful care of you, and we're gonna figure this out. And that's kind of my closing statement with them.
Because more than anything at that time, what they need is comfort. They need hope, right? Somebody tells you you have cancer. What goes through your mind? You go through your own mortality. What is it like when the plug is pulled? [00:14:00] Do I really believe in God? Is there an afterlife? What about my family? You give them hope.
And so a lot of things that we give people and in that setting isn't necessarily, you know, fixing a bone or or curing their cough or giving them an antibiotic that is a vast majority. But the times that you actually make a huge impact are sometimes those conversations. I didn't fix anything. I didn't make anyone better.
But hopefully that conversation had started her journey, which is going to be a very difficult journey off on the right foot. So that, that was a part of some of my experiences being with different people, and I said, wow, if I can continue to do that on, on, on multiple levels, sometimes it's just telling somebody you got a pneumonia, and they're like, thank God.
Now I can take antibiotic and get better. Or, Hey, this is busted. You're out for six to eight weeks. Um, here's some pain medication. Oh, I feel better. You know, it, it comes in all different forms, but I, I didn't know that was something I wanted to do, because to me, other than being a police officer, which I [00:15:00] got pretty disillusioned with, that seemed to be the best way of being a superhero.
That's the only way I could, I could put it.
Riley: Beautiful. Do you, when you're in those situations, um, and you're giving somebody hard truth, do you find that it's maybe easier on them if you straight with it and just like, look for this lady for instance, you know, this is going to be a hard road,
Joe Spinell: Yeah.
Riley: you're in the
best place. Like you said, you're in the best place possible
Joe Spinell: Right, right.
Riley: figure it out.
I mean, how do, how do people react to that? Do you find, lemme
Joe Spinell: So,
Riley: coming from for a
quick second before
Joe Spinell: yeah, yeah. Please, please do. Please do.
Riley: sometimes I think in the, in the effort to be nice, we kind of pussyfoot around things and dance
Joe Spinell: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Riley: so vague that then people are confused and then they're upset more when, if you just shoot straight with them and tell 'em exactly [00:16:00] where they stand. there's almost this relief of like, okay, now at least I have a good footing and a place to start.
Joe Spinell: Yeah,
Riley: I
Joe Spinell: I, I think it's, it goes to, yeah, it, it goes to like what I call draining and abscess. 'cause when I know, when I have a, a medical student or a new resident, it's gonna drain an abscess, right? They're gonna numb an area up, they're gonna take a blade, they're gonna open it up, and they're gonna get the pus out when they are so afraid of hurting the patient, that they don't make a good enough, an local anesthetic when they don't make a big enough incision, when they've made it harder on themselves because they were afraid to inflict pain in that moment.
But you gotta understand that pain in that moment is gonna give relief later on. You can't control how, you know, I, I always think of that analogy. I think it's called a circle of influence. You know, we have the, the things that we can control, which is essentially our reactions, the things that we can influence, which is very small, and then everything else.
And we can't control that. So in some of these [00:17:00] conversations, you can't always control the way the person's going to react or how it's going to, um, how, how they're going to take it. But I actually think it be, it belongs in that little tiny, that little tiny sliver, that little tiny pie of influence. And the only thing you can truly control is how you are going to deliver that news.
And by pushings footing around, by not being upfront and honest. You know, and I, I, I'm just real, I have a pretty patent thing. I tell people, I say I am, you know, I am. They look at my ears, they look at the way I walk, the way I limp around and I say, as you can see, I'm pretty much a knuckle dragger, right?
I'm an educated knuckle dragger and I'm not gonna sugarcoat anything for you, but we're gonna figure out the best way we're gonna navigate this. You, your heart's failing. It's, you got fluid in your lungs, you can't go home. But I'll tell you what, you give us two [00:18:00] days to do what we need to do, and we're gonna get you back up on your feet.
And so you always hit 'em with the truth
because if you don't, somebody else is, and man, you just failed that person. You just, it's the same thing with, with athletes. And I tell every single athlete, I will never consciously lie to you. So when I tell you, you did a good job, you did a good job. When I tell you you did outstanding, you did outstanding.
But I'm going to tell you when you effed up, because if we don't address it, we can never fix it. And that, that me doing that is not a love. That's 'cause I look. 'cause if I don't care, I'm not talking to you. I'm not telling you did good. I'm not telling you if I'm giving up hope on you, I'm not talking to you at all.
But when I do, it's going to be direct. It's going to be honest and we're gonna fix it or we're gonna encourage it. And I get that constantly outta Eli in the middle stop. Now tell him he did something good. He won't believe me. I'm like, bro, [00:19:00] you did. Well, I lost. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But listen, you did X, Y, and Z.
You improved on this, this, and this. And he might win a match and come off. And I go, dude, you look like dog shit, huh? Yeah. You look like dog shit, we gotta go watch the video later on. Okay. But he knows it's outta love, you know? I know he has certain goals and if for us to get to those goals, we gotta, we got to address the weak points and addressing them softly and, and I mean, there are certain personalities you might need to do that with.
Again, that's that influence side. But the vast majority of people direct with love and it's gonna work, at least in my experience.
Riley: Man, a scripture that says, speak the truth and love. Right? And I think that's exactly what we're talking
Joe Spinell: Yes. Yeah,
Riley: man. Um, talk to me about this. Now I want to kind of segue into the athletic world, because that's the majority of what we're gonna talk about today.
Joe Spinell: sure.
Riley: I wanna do this from, from your, um, medical experience, right?
[00:20:00] Um, I'd mentioned to you off air that my father used to get after me going, Hey, man, you're doing this, this Juujitsu game, and
Joe Spinell: Yeah.
Riley: you know, you're,
in
your middle forties and you too old for this? Right? And
Joe Spinell: Right.
Riley: to him was
always, you know what, my buddies who are my same age, that sit in their recliner all the time are dealing with knees going bad and hips going bad.
They can bad backs and surgeries and this, and diabetes and all this other, other crap. And you're upset 'cause I'm walking around with a sore elbow 'cause I got arm barred last night. Right.
Joe Spinell: Yeah, yeah,
Riley: injured, I just have, I, I've been tweaked for a decade, but
Joe Spinell: yeah.
Riley: never been, you know, badly hurt and I'm in way better shape than my, my, know, colleagues are in the same age group.
And so can you talk about that, just kind of the, um, the difference between athletes and the sedentary and what, what you see in the medical field.
Joe Spinell: Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, the sedentary lifestyle is the gateway to everything else bad that we do, right? It's the gateway to every other disease that's gonna come, come around. If people would just simply [00:21:00] move. There are so many things that trickle out from just moving. When you think about, um, even going out and having a beer and you're having with your friends or eating hot wings, it's kind of a relaxed kind of, um, relaxing, right?
When you think about coming home and o bag, o bag of chips with a soda, it's relaxing. But when you're active and you're moving a, you don't always have time for those things. You know, I'm not gonna go out drinking. I go wake up early in the morning and go meet my buddies for a workout. You think about replenishing your body with healthier things, it just naturally comes along.
I wish we could do a study. I wish we could do a study where we take random people and have them walk two miles a day and see what their choices are later on that day. It'd be a real interesting say, 'cause mine, this is all anecdotal for me, just seeing and working with people, the average casual athlete that comes in, or casual practitioner, that becomes an athlete by just coming to class twice a week.
It changes everything they do. It changes the way they sleep. They're actually now going to the gym 'cause [00:22:00] they want to get stronger and it changes what they eat and how they replenish their body. They're replenishing themselves with electrolyte supplements with water. They're not chugging down a a 12 pack of Coke in one day.
You know, their whole perspective starts to change. So movement is huge without a doubt. And addressing the fact that sedentary lifestyle is the death. So when I went to Worlds, I blew out my groin. My right groin. It was, it was the most embarrassing but kind of the most enlightening thing that's ever happened to me competition wise.
'cause I was prepared to win my first two matches. I had no doubt in my mind I was gonna win my first two matches and be able to fight G Gado in the third round. 'cause I saw Gado was in my bracket and I'm like, since I've become a black belt, I just wanna get on the mat with this guy. Absolute legend. I know he is gonna whoop my ass, but this is if I, maybe I can get a lasso on him.
Maybe I could threaten him with a sweet, like my mind's going through all this. I said, but hold on Joe, you gotta get through the first [00:23:00] two rounds. I can do it. Had game plans for each guy. I mean, and within the first 20 seconds, I go to pull guard. My right groin completely pops. In fact, the guy that I was going with, he, he looked down at me, he's like, Hey man, are you okay?
Is that your knee? I'm like, nah, I think that was my groin. So long story short, um, her wife asking me, she's like, is it a booboo or is it an injury? Because that's how I talk to the kids. Is it a booboo or is it an injury?
And I'm like, I don't know what the hell it is. All right. All I know is I couldn't move my leg.
And two days later, I'm sitting there on the jaw, looking down at my leg and it's completely bruised. I come out of the bathroom so happy that I was actually injured, and it wasn't mental weakness. Uh, you never seen anybody so happy about blowing out their groin before. So I haven't been able, other than just lift, I haven't been able to do anything.
Guess what's happened since that time? I have gained the worst tendonitis in my left foot, and my back is flared [00:24:00] up beyond belief. Why? Because I'm too sedentary With this injury, I don't, I don't feel this much pain when I'm training hard and I'm limping around the store because my gait has changed, because my groin injury and the fact that all I'm doing is bench pressing and like rows just lifting, not doing anything really, really active.
Look what's happened. Prime example, how sedentary lifestyle will create other injuries. So yeah, when we walk around tweaked with a shoulder or an elbow or even our back, who cares? It's better than having a back injury from having a huge belly sitting on the couch watching Dorito, uh, eating Doritos and watching what the Bachelor, you know?
So, um, yeah, I agree with you a hundred percent, but to, to really keep that going, you have to be safe and selective about your partners and, and kind of change your style for the longevity of that journey when you get a little older, you know?
Riley: Yeah, I want to talk to you about that as we go on too, 'cause you know
Joe Spinell: [00:25:00] Yeah.
Riley: how to
train in that. But let's, um, let's kind of follow this path here. When you are, um, when you're dealing with this, these people in emergency medicine type situation, easier to deal with the fit athlete or the sedentary,
Joe Spinell: So
Riley: shape person.
Joe Spinell: yeah, the, the, when you, and it's a rare thing. It's a rare thing that you have an athlete that comes in for something that's non-traumatic. Okay. It's rare. Sometimes they'll come in a little bit for maybe anxiety related chest pain, things like that. And some of 'em are get sick. I mean, I remember during COVID we had a lot of 'em coming in, just sick of thinking that they were gonna die the very, the first stage.
But in any condition, when an athlete comes in, a, they're super receptive. They know they need to pay attention to what you're saying. Um, and if they don't understand, typically the, they're gonna be more likely to ask questions of clarification. And that's [00:26:00] something that I don't get from a lot of my obvious non-athlete patients.
And you have to take that in consideration when you're explaining things to, they're more in tune with their bodies and they're more compliant. They, they really want the instructions down, okay, wait, wait, wait. So I got an antibiotic tonight. Do I take the antibiotic in the morning or the afternoon? And those type of questions, I, I love it.
'cause I'm like, yeah, he's really invested in getting better. But the, the fact of the matter is we don't have athletes coming in that with high blood pressure, headaches and stroke-like symptoms. It's, it's, it's rare. It just isn't something that happens when you take care of your body as often.
Riley: Yeah. Yeah. So you're dealing more, like you said, traumatic stuff, you know, broken
Joe Spinell: Yeah. You'll have athletes or car accidents. Yeah. Dislocations injuries from activities. And of course if there's anything wrestling or juujitsu related, they're like, oh, we have the doc for you. 10 minutes, he comes on shift. So, you know, I, I, I get all them by [00:27:00] default.
Riley: okay. They send 'em all your way, huh?
Joe Spinell: They do, they'll hold 'em for me, or, or if it's too close to the end of their shift, beginning of mind, they'll, they'll say, Hey, I had this guy came in two big cauliflower ears. He tweaked his knee when he was doing something called shooting. I don't know. Yeah. Okay. All right. Gotcha, man. Yeah, I know exactly what was going on.
So it is really nice to make a, make a connection with an athlete in the room though, you know? Um, you know, I'm pretty identifiable. You can't see it with my headphones on, but it's, um, the old, the old patients think I have a birth defect and the young ones know that I wrestle. So, um, it's a good source of conversation.
Riley: We're gonna take a little bit of a, um, I want you to show people what cauliflower ear looks like. I do
Joe Spinell: Oh, okay.
Riley: this
Joe Spinell: Okay.
Riley: I've
never
Joe Spinell: Yeah.
Riley: of it, but yeah. Get that up there by the camera man. It's like, so talk about what it is, uh, what, what is cauliflower ear and what causes it?
Joe Spinell: So, um, Cauliflower Ear is caused by the separation [00:28:00] of the two tissues that are within the ear Okay? You have cartilage and you have a surrounding tissue around the cartilage, and that's what we call a potential space. Okay? So a potential space is a space that doesn't exist, but could exist if something gets in there.
And when you have trauma to the ear that, um, that potential space ends up filling up with blood. Now, in and of itself, that's not so bad, but when the blood sits around and doesn't get drained, then it ends up calcifying and it becomes almost like this crystal hard stone light material. Um, some guys wear it as a, as a, like a badge of honor.
Um, other guys get them infected and sometimes they get infected. You know, they, they, they can be incredibly problematic. My oldest hates his because he can't even put earbuds in his left ear. I think it's one, one of the two ears is completely closed up, so he hates 'em, and he wants to go to a ENT ear, nose, and throat doc to get it, get it, uh, fixed, you know?
But, um, because he has his more in the canal, but it's from repetitive trauma and some people are [00:29:00] susceptible to it, other people aren't. It doesn't signify you're a good grappler or a bad grappler. It just signifies you've had some trauma to your years. And for years since high school, I've gotten drained, had a drain put on one at one point, would go in and drain them myself.
And then finally when I got to my forties. I was, was done with it. I was done. I was like, just let him fill up. I'm done with this. And, uh, yeah, my wife's not too happy with it, but you know, as you get older, we all get kind of ugly, so whatcha gonna do about that, you
know,
Riley: You know?
it's a, it's a funny thing that you bring the cauliflower ear thing up because I grapplers or boxers or, you know, combat sport, people identify each other instantly by that.
Right.
Joe Spinell: Yeah,
yeah,
Riley: a, whether it's a badge of honor or not, I don't know, but it's, it's a signif uh, signifier of comradery, right.
We instantly, it's like, Hey, man, I, I see your ears. You know what, what
Joe Spinell: yeah.
Riley: And,
Joe Spinell: Yeah. That's why the, the guy at the restaurant today.
Yeah, the guy at the restaurant today, you know, um, the, I was at a, a restaurant. I went to [00:30:00] lunch with my wife and, um, there was a, a man and his son that were walking in, first thing that been through my mind is, oh, he must be homeschooled. But then I saw his shirt and it was like, Mount Juliet wrestling.
I was like, that's cool, man. And I, I, I thought like the, the, the dad looked kind of familiar, but I don't wanna sit there and stare. And my wife went to the restroom waiting for our table and he came up and said, he recognized me and had that question, I think I mentioned to you, like, juujitsu or wrestling, what do I do for my kid?
But I think the identification was, he kind of saw me, he sees the ears and he is like, oh yeah, I do know that guy.
Um, and uh, yeah, so it is definitely, I get that a lot at work. I'm walking down the hallway and it's a hallway patient. Yo man, you do MMA. Yeah. Yeah. Just so it's a, it's a pretty common thing, so
[00:31:00]
Riley: Yeah. It's, it's, it, uh, have, have you ever seen that meme That's a nature's warning signs and it
Joe Spinell: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Riley: frog and like the, the snake and the, you know, triangle head, and then it shows teeth, beared, and a wolf or something. And it shows cauliflower here.
Joe Spinell: I, yeah, I think the cauliflower definitely says at least somebody's had some time in the combat arena.
I sent that to my oldest [00:32:00] son and he said, mine still suck 'cause he can't put the earbud in,
but, you know, it, it's a,
Riley: about it, huh?
Joe Spinell: uh, he's a musician also, so it makes it a little bit harder for him. He's, he's in college right now for a, he has a, a, a music scholarship as part of his, luckily he did really well in school.
We don't pay anything. He has an academic and music scholarship, so, uh, his ears are kind of important. Yeah. But, yeah, good thing is El he's just started, you know, when he was done with his competition career, it was a really hard thing for him because he knew, uh, at the end of high school and we traveled everywhere.
And he, he was absolutely amazing, absolutely amazing competitor. And, um, he knew that that was coming to an end with the commitment that he had to do in, in regards to college if he wanted to go to medical school. And I told him like, listen, man. And Jujitsu's giving me, as a dad, as a [00:33:00] parent, everything I'd wanted to give my son.
You know, you've learned to defend yourself, you've learned to teach, you have set goals, and you accomplish those goals. You, I remember when we were setting goals, he's like, I want to, I want to double gold in an I-B-J-J-F tournament with more than three people in my divisions.
Riley: Yeah. Okay. Pause for a second. That's an inside joke. For non jiu-jitsu people, we
Joe Spinell: Right?
Riley: and the
I-B-J-J-F is a, is a governing, well, not a governing board, it's association of tournaments. Right. It's a
Joe Spinell: Yeah. It's, it's,
it's looked at as that. Yeah.
Riley: Yeah.
Joe Spinell: yeah. I would say, I, I say it's a flagship of our sport on like it or don't like it.
Uh, and, and the masses, then the masses eyes. It's the flagship of our flagship, of our, of our sport at this moment in time in gee.
Riley: Yeah, but the
Joe Spinell: Yeah.
Riley: joke there and the kind of, the funny thing you said is a division with more than three people in it, because it's, it's divided up between skill level, belt rank, um, and weight class. [00:34:00] And sometimes you get into these tournaments and you might be the only guy in your, your division.
Joe Spinell: Right.
Riley: move to another division. And sometimes,
Joe Spinell: Yeah.
Riley: two other dudes, or me and one other guy.
Joe Spinell: Yeah.
Riley: got this podium and people are like, yeah, I got first or second place in this tournament. It's like, yeah, but was only two of you.
Joe Spinell: He did that. He said that at, um, we were at the airport and there was this little old lady sat down next to him. She, and I don't know how she, she's started talking to him and, uh, so what do you do? Why, why did you come to New Orleans? Or wherever we were? And he said, oh, for a Jiujitsu tournament. She's like, oh, very good.
How did you do? He's like, oh, I took third. She's like, that's fantastic. And he looked at her dead in the eye and said, there were only three people.
Riley: They
Joe Spinell: I'm like, listen, man. Well, I also told him like, listen, she had so much enjoyment talking to you, and she had so much fun, [00:35:00] young man going, coming into New Orleans, wherever it was, we were, and you just ruined her day.
You just spoiled it for her. I said, it's okay to tell the story and you don't need to tell the whole story right now. Now the training partner or friend, but it's a calling person just enjoying your story. Learn to tell a good story. It's okay. He's just, he that's not his style man. It's not his style at all.
So yeah, pretty funny. But I told him, you know, you did all these accomplishments, you know, um, as far as what I want Jujitsu to teach you, we're done. We're done. And that really got solidified when he came home from, I think it was a chemistry class. And I say, Hey, how's it going man? And he said, Hmm, it's a pretty tough class.
He said, I gotta figure this one out. We're done. We are absolutely done. You're not blaming it on the professor, you're not blaming it on bad material, you're not blaming it on the syllabus. You're taking [00:36:00] ownership and saying, you need to figure it out. We're set, bro. I said, you're gonna do fine in medical school.
Well, why do you say that? Because I'm seeing things that you're doing that the average person doesn't do. And I'm telling you, it's not because of me, it's because of Jiujitsu. It's because of time that you spent learning ownership. And I mean, that's the truth of it. Now he is thinking about doing some competitions right now just 'cause he is teaching a lot.
But I'm just, you know, he's got a little, he's gonna graduate a year or early, so he is got a little free time on his hands.
So I, I don't know. We'll, we'll see where he goes.
Yeah,
Riley: That's beautiful in a lot of ways, man, my wife and I have talked about that a lot over the years. You know, we're, we're not trying to raise good kids. We're trying to raise good adults. Right. And so
Joe Spinell: yeah.
Riley: about him processing this stuff and not blaming the, the professor for it being difficult, or the curriculum, just saying like, I'm gonna have to figure this thing out.
I haven't, I haven't cracked the code yet, but that's my
Joe Spinell: Yep.
Riley: is
to crack the code. Right.
Joe Spinell: Because I've done it before and I can do it again. It [00:37:00] just takes time.
And that's not something that you can, you can see and know it's something you have to experience to live it. You have to go through that. To truly believe it. To live it. You could see it in a movie, you could read it in a book, you could see it with a friend.
But unless you've experienced putting something in and eventually getting something out unexpected, you don't believe in, you don't in your heart, don't believe in the process. But once you know what's real, you'll, you'll set it for every aspect of your life. And, and then, you know, nothing's, I can't, there's almost everything I can achieve within reason.
It just takes time. It might take me more time than the next guy, but all it takes is time. And I gotta figure out how to cut that time shorter. There's secrets to that. Lemme figure out how to do that. You know, so I, it, it's, it's, it's phenomenal when you see that play out in real life outside of your own life.
Riley: And. Good job, dad. That just makes me happy from a dad perspective, I'm like, [00:38:00] I know the joy that that brings when you're,
Joe Spinell: Yeah. Yeah.
Riley: watch your kid just figure something out. It's like,
Joe Spinell: Bigger than any tournament, bigger than any medal, anything else that is, 'cause that's life right there. These other things are just games that we play to give us skill for life. Right. That life is the real, is the real game. And when they start doing those type of things, then it, it justifies the therapy that they're gonna need in the future.
Because all the, all the stuff that happened now,
Riley: I love it. love
Joe Spinell: yeah.
Riley: Well talk, talk about this Joe. 'cause we, a lot of reason I wanted to talk to you today was from a coaching perspective. Man, what makes an excellent coach? Uh.
Joe Spinell: Man, there are so many different, there are so many different little things that make a good coach, but I think there's one pinnacle. There's just just one thing that can tie everything in together and to, to make it more romantic, I would say love [00:39:00] it. That's what it is. You know, you can call these different things, investment, commitment, whatever, but it's love.
If you have love for what you're doing and the people that you're working with, you are gonna find all the other things such as patience, such as active listening, such as, man, I teach that technique one way, but I love this, this group so much. How do I do it better? Where do I need to go? What do I need to do to get my athletes to get this technique better or this approach better?
But it all comes outta that, that, that, that dedication, that discipline, which sprouts out a love. And think about it, you can't be an effective coach. You're teaching a, a sport you don't love if you don't have a sincere interest in that sport. I really don't know how effective coach you're gonna be if you don't love your athletes and what they're learning from this.
I don't know how effective coach you're gonna be. So, as I think, in my opinion, that's the key thing. That's what drives all the things you do outside of the [00:40:00] training room to make you a better coach.
Riley: Do you. You're talking about love, right? And love for the sport. Love for the love for the people. How does that come across? Because you, you know, we've all had those coaches that, now, I'll give you an example. My, my jiujitsu coach, man, that dude would tell me the truth. Sometimes it cut deep and I had to, I had to contend with it, right?
I had to sit there and really, like, sometimes it hurt, man. But
Joe Spinell: Yeah.
Riley: run, I was
like, gosh, I'm so glad to have this dude in my life. Speak to
Joe Spinell: Yeah. I, I think that there are, I hate to say bad coaches there, there's some coaches that will do that because they have a power trip because they enjoy putting somebody down because it gives them something, you know? Um, it's like what I think of as a, as a bad teacher, and I'm around them not too much where I work, but I'm around them and it's like they're degrading the residents [00:41:00] and it's like, okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Did you do that for them or did you do that for you? If you did that for you, bad teacher, if you did that to them outta love. Okay. Did you ever see the movie, um, uh, whiplash? I tell every coach, every coach and every athlete watch the movie Whiplash. When I talk to my oldest son about his dedication and why he's such an in, he's a, he's insane.
He's, he's a, he's psychotic with his dedication. And this movie was kind of the est for him, realizing I'm not doing enough. But from a coaching perspective, that question that you just asked, watch that movie and you can see the main instructor and say, is he doing that for himself or outta love? And I think that's the main thing, those conversations, when you, when you have a really good coach, when you're a good person, those conversations aren't easy.
They're difficult conversations. You know, Hey, if I say that you work subpar, I said You [00:42:00] did. Okay. I gotta be honest with you. That looked like dog shit. And yeah, maybe you want me to use a different phrase. Maybe I, but I'm coming to you right now. Do you wanna make a change or are you just in here just to get some exercise?
Do you want to improve? I want you to improve. That's why I'm having this very difficult conversation. 'cause nothing's easier than to say to you, good job. How'd it go tonight, coach? Oh, good job. Well, you must not love me 'cause you're not telling me the truth right now. 'cause that was not a good job. And so that style of approach I don't think needs to be rigid.
I think a really good coach figures out this guy needs hard love. That guy needs soft love. That guy's only gonna respond to me if I make this his idea. So that's when I go up to them and I say. So I had practice go tonight. Yeah. What could you have done better? Well, you know, I'm really staying on my knees, honestly.
I'm being kind of lazy. Hmm. How are we gonna fix that? I don't know. [00:43:00] What did you suggest? No, no, no, no, no, no. You tell me. Because I know if I come to tell him, Hey Bobby, you've been on your knees all night, it's not gonna resonate. It needs to be his idea. So figuring out each athlete and how they respond, that, that's the tough part.
I don't think you could just yell at every single athlete. It might come outta love, but that's not smart. You gotta pick out the ones that you, that you gotta be upfront with the other ones that you have to make it their idea. Other ones, you might have to give 'em a couple compliments, then hammer, because, hey, if you're not hammering me, you're not being a coach.
You're not telling me the truth. So it's just that's that's, and that's tough though. That's tough. But that goes back to my dad, the monster, right? Because he would say that everybody that comes in isn't trying to buy a computer. And if you're trying to sell everyone a computer, you're gonna be poor. So what do you gotta do?
You gotta figure out what everybody wants. And as a coach, you gotta figure out, and I've seen very rigid [00:44:00] coaches, it's my way or the highway, but I've seen the best. I've seen world class coaches. That's not how they coach. They figure out each athlete and they figure out how, how direct do I need to be with him?
How do I need to be with him and how do I need, need to be with him? Because if, if you don't have a different style for each personality, you're not gonna resonate with 'em. You won't get in their mind, you won't make them have that decision. Um, and I think that's the, but that again, where does that come out of?
It comes outta love, right? Because most people yeah, don't want to do that. But when you're saying, man, I love these guys, I gotta do it. Let me figure out how to do it. So
Riley: Yeah. And
Joe Spinell: my take on it.
Riley: deeper. Would, would you say it even goes deeper where um, it's not just that individual person hears it a certain way, but it's day to day, that guy can be in a mood. I had a student the other night, and that's what kind of brings this up, is I could just tell he was off. And in the situation it didn't work out where I was able to talk to him, but I, I said goodbye to him. He kind of went, he left early [00:45:00] and, uh, I, I touched base with him later, um, and I just person in person over the phone and I said, Hey man, what was going on tonight? you just seemed off. And he says, man, I just wasn't in the head space to be in there training tonight.
And it, this, um, this had I trained and, and gotten under pressure, I would've had a, you know, he would've reacted to it. And he kind of knew where he was at and. I just encouraged him a minute. I was like, you know, this is a recreational thing we do. We're not, we're all middle-aged dudes we're, yeah, if you're not in the head space to be here, going home was the, the right thing to do that night? But I want your butt back in there tomorrow and you're feeling better and let's have a better night. You know, we're gonna, we're gonna
Joe Spinell: Yeah,
Riley: But, know, so there was some kind of man to man, uh, hard talk in there, but there was also that, Hey, you did the right thing, man. If you're,
Joe Spinell: yeah,
Riley: it, it's
okay to go home.
Joe Spinell: yeah. And then [00:46:00] sometimes like this is a bad habit that we get outta wrestling. And I can understand it in the tournament setting because that athlete is going to need to wrestle in about an hour. Maybe from now they need to make some adjustments. But coaching the kids the minute they get off the mat is the most ineffective time to do that.
And on the flip side of it, there are certain athletes that you can address things with right away. And there's other athletes that, you know what? I know this guy. I gotta give him space and then I need to ask what's going on? Have him come up with the solutions because it's not going to be effective right now.
And so, um. Yeah, I mean, that just, it's probably a blessing that he walked out. He didn't have a chance to talk to him right then, you know what I mean? Because you don't know how effective that conversation would've been. And the one, the one thing that always is, is, is the variable, right? Is that we as coaches make mistakes.
You know, we misjudge, we see things [00:47:00] wrong, we talk the wrong way. We don't, don't resonate as well with this person. Um, and I think the easy way out is to say, well, it's my way or the highway. And oh man, you know, we we're learning like just like the students are learning, you know, we're, we're learning better ways of communicating, better ways of listening, better ways of, you know, just trying to figure out a situation and the best way to address it and the most effective for that person.
Um, you know, it's, we're not, we're not infallible. So we might be coaching. And I always ask myself that, am I coaching the best way I can for that individual? Am I hitting the mark or am I not? And what adjustments do I need to make?
Riley: Dropping some wisdom bombs here, my friend. I, uh, I get so encouraged by it. 'cause you know, you and I have talked about this again in personal conversation between the two of us. That coach is an area where you actually articulated that just prior to starting the recording, that it's a different art [00:48:00] form from practicing this sport. And so you can be a great practitioner
but not a good coach. And, uh,
maybe speak to that a little bit, Joe.
Joe Spinell: I think it's one of those things where they really, it's like I always say to the residents, we'll come out of, we'll come out of a situation and walk our way back to the desk. I just look at 'em and smile and I go, it's not easy, is it? And they just shake their heads and they go, well you make it look easy.
I'm like, no, I don't. I might make it look easy. This shit is not easy. This is tough. And I think people look at coaching and they think it's easy. I show a technique. I structure a class. Oh, look how great coach I am. Look at my set. I do a 15 minute warmup. We work technique for this and that. And okay, you're good at organizing.
I don't know if you're a good coach. And I go as far to say that I like to use the word coach during ringside. [00:49:00] Okay. 'cause that's a whole different aspect, having somebody in combat and trying to get them through. That's why I call true coaching. I think of us as teachers, but we use the word interchangeably, don't we?
You know, whether it's in the dojo, whether it's in the training hall, whether it's on the wrestling mat, it's a coach. But I think of coaching more as when we're in combat. And I think teaching and coaching are two completely different skills. And yet people think, they think it's easy. They think it's easy, and it's easy to show a technique.
It's not easy to teach a technique. And what I mean by that is show a technique. Show a concept, run a drill that allows your athlete to take their skill level higher. That's not easy. The language you use, it's not, and they think it's demonstrating well, I can do it. You know, I, I've done this many times, right?
It's not demonstrating, man, [00:50:00] it's how do I use language in such a way that that athlete is going to be able to replay this technique in their mind years from now. Why do they gravitate? I think we were talking about why are there, you know, in, in our, our journey of jiujitsu, how many techniques have we learned?
Or I shouldn't say that. How many techniques have we been exposed to? Thousands, easily Thousands. With the permutations of just arm bars alone, you're probably 50, right?
So why don't we remember all of them? Is that our teaching? Is it the way we drilled it? Is it the fact that we did drill it and we didn't learn it on our own through mistake?
Um, there's so much that runs into that. And you as a coach teacher, there's so much that goes into how do I present it and what, what do I do and what does this person need to use this as a part of their toolbox, what I call their toolbox, what they have on recall versus their. Tool shed, which they need to watch a YouTube video and go, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I know that. Okay. Yeah, [00:51:00] yeah, I know that. Or recognize it somewhere. Oh yeah, I know that. But can you do that? And, um, yeah, it's, it's tough. It's tough. It's just, it's so, it's just like walking outta the room with that resident. They thought it was so easy. Oh man, shit is not easy. Teaching is not easy.
Teaching competently, that's easy. But teaching on a higher level where you achieve those things and, and not even that, it's like connecting with the, the connecting with your athletes so they trust in you. So they come to you for not just sport advice, but just kind of life advice too. That is all a part of that, in my opinion.
That's what it means to me. It doesn't have to mean that to everybody else, but to me, that's what being a coach is. 'cause that's what they were for me as when I was growing up. So that's what I wanna be for other people now.
Riley: Now, it's interesting how you put that with, uh, the difference between a coach and a teacher. Right? 'cause remember the first competition I did, the guy who had taught me and [00:52:00] instructed me up to that point, I was only used to hearing his voice in the classroom
Joe Spinell: Mm-hmm.
Riley: And it was a normal speaking voice, right?
Well, then we got into the tournament and we're in this loud gymnasium at a high school. It's a jiujitsu tournament, right? because of the volume and because of the urgency of competition, over there yelling instruction to me. Well, I had
never heard his voice, him raise his voice. And so the entire time I was hearing someone yelling, but I didn't realize it was him. And so I'm in the midst of this, this grappling match, not realizing that that's my coach talking to me. I.
Joe Spinell: right, right, right.
Riley: I wasn't listening to a thing he was saying. I, I remember in hindsight when I watched the video, I can actually hear him yelling and I was like, oh, I remember hearing that, but with the adrenaline dump.
Joe Spinell: Yeah.
Riley: that's a coaching's a different thing, right.
Joe Spinell: Yeah. When, um, I was lucky enough that, uh, two years ago we had this southern scuffle down here, which is a number of D [00:53:00] one, uh, wrestling teams, uh, came to one of our places. So I got to be this. Um, for day two, I was the doc there. So if somebody gets cut, you stitch 'em up. You know, they have their own trainers, so bloody noses and stuff like that they'll take care of.
But something major, I'm there. And so I got to set Matt's side. And the one thing I wanted to do, 'cause I go to, I mean, more high school matches and middle school matches and club matches than it's nauseating sometimes, but to be able to be Matt's side with those coaches. I wanted to see how did those coaches coach?
It's hard not to watch the match, but I really wanted to see, and you know what's really interesting, the best ones the one like the Schwab bro brothers from uh, Northern Iowa, which who I love, absolutely love very little. They coached very little. They talked when they had to [00:54:00] talk, they said things when they had to say things.
And that was really impactful. And it made me think to myself, okay, I'm doing things right. There's certain kids I know need encouragement. So the whole time I'm like, okay Bobby, let's do it baby. Let's put it on. Let's be first. Let's go, let's go. They need a little bit of that, but most of the season they don't need a lot of coaching.
They don't need you to scream out every single move. So you're telling everybody else, you know, juujitsu. So I find out a lot. Hey Billy, he's going for the arm bar. Billy. Billy. Hold that elbow. We ain't going for the arm, but yeah, everybody knows he's going for the armbar. You don't need to tell Billy Eaton is going for the arm.
Just tell him to keep his elbow in. Give him instruction. You know, get out the get up, get up. The thing I hate the most, get up. Will you please tell this young athlete, Hey, put all your weight on your left knee. Get all the weight on the left knee. Good job, baby. Okay. I need you to step up. The right is the right.
I need the right foot flat on the mat. Oh, we gotta start over. That's all right. That's alright. We can start over. Get the weight on the left knee. [00:55:00] So I'm telling him to stand up, but I'm giving him instruction. And that's what you don't, that's what you don't see out of sideline coaching too often. Um, and we all fall into it 'cause we get emotionally involved and we're like, get up.
Well that didn't help him. Hips high. Get your hips high. Hips high.
Riley: needs
Joe Spinell: Oh yeah. He knows he's gotta get up, but he may not know he needs to get his hips high. Oh, okay. Get my hips up. Okay. You can't jump over the top. Okay, I'm good. Put your hands, all the hands. Weight on the hands. Weight on the hands. Weight on your hands now hips up.
And so you, you're really coaching them through that. Not just telling them, get up, get the arm. Get the arm. Well why don't you tell 'em, hook the leg around the head. Keep your butt close. Scoot your butt in. Scoot your butt in. Not enough. Not enough baby. Get it in there. You know, it's it. That's coaching. And just because you're a good athlete doesn't make you a good teacher.
Just 'cause you're a good teacher doesn't make you a good coach. And all of those don't make you a good business partner. So you can see how hard it is to keep a Juujitsu school open.
Riley: Oh my gosh. [00:56:00] Um, Joe, switching gears
Joe Spinell: Mm-hmm.
Riley: here.
What, what's it like to teach your, your own sons? 'cause you, you have three boys, right?
Joe Spinell: Yeah. Yeah. I've got Jackson who just turned 21, Eli, who just turned 16. And then Joey, who is 12.
Riley: Okay.
Joe Spinell: Yeah.
Riley: Um, Savage, young man. I've seen clips of them grappling. They're tough dudes, all of them, but sometimes that father-son dynamic can really be a challenge. Um, I interviewed, I, uh, Yvonne Ivanov. Do you know who he is? He's the sue place, um, Bulgarian bag.
Joe Spinell: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Riley: Okay. So he was on just a couple episodes ago and I asked him the same question 'cause he's got a
Joe Spinell: Right?
Riley: who's, you
know, kind of the world class wrestler.
Joe Spinell: Mm-hmm.
Riley: to make him a world
champion. And so we,
Joe Spinell: Yeah.
Riley: to him about
this dynamic of working with your own, own kiddos and
Joe Spinell: Yeah.
Riley: some headbutting can happen there, but how do you navigate that?
Joe Spinell: I think [00:57:00] the, the one thing that you have to kind of establish and don't be afraid to revisit it is what does the sport mean to your son or daughter? I'm gonna use the word son just for a place, but of course this means son or daughter, right? What is it that it means to you? What are your goals that you want to achieve, and how can I best help you get there?
So I keep, that keeps me from getting my goals mixed into theirs. I think that's the key. That's the first thing. As a parent, you can't live vicariously through your kids. What does it mean for you? Are you going to wrestling practice? 'cause you love hanging out with the guys and you're just gonna do it for a season and you wanna move on to anything else?
Great. I'm gonna be supportive of you in that because trying to push you to do anything more is gonna ruin the sport. Oh, you want to do what? You wanna win a state championship? I don't believe you give me three ways you're gonna make that happen. [00:58:00] Hmm. You did it. Are you sure that's your commitment?
Because now I'm going to support you in that and you may not like it. So we set this commitment based on what their goals are and so I don't have to worry about my kid that's just doing it for fun and casually, you know? Like right now, Jackson, he's not competing. Okay. I'm not asking him. Hey brother, you know, did you, did you lift today?
Did you go for your run? Hey, I got three things for you to change. You said you wanted, you wanted to win like a national title. We, we need to do these things. And so I think it helps keep the friction out of that. And when friction occurs, it's like, hey, you set the goal. I'm being supportive of your goal.
And we do not change goals because of situations, because of adversity. We're not changing this goal. Now when this time has ended and we, we, we use the, the, the, the, uh, you might have heard it before, just the, um, we set [00:59:00] goals based on, you know, achievability and timing and can it be measured, you know, it's called a simple, but in any case, so our timing, smart goals.
Excuse me. So our timing, when that time is up, we reset. What do we wanna do now? And I, I, I think that's helped me keep the healthiest relationships with the kids. They may not say that I'd like to hear their response on that. Uh, and the only thing I've ever said to them is, you have to train, whether it's juujitsu or wrestling or if you wanna box instead, I don't care.
But you gotta train at something in regards to your own self-defense. Other, if you want to compete, that's dependent on the sport. 'cause if you wrestle for the high school, you're gonna have to compete. If you do juujitsu, you don't have to, you know? So, um, I think that's helped out with that relationship.
And then balancing being a coach with being a dad, I think that helps with it. But I think always just ending with, Hey, this [01:00:00] is my story. I've effed up 10 times more than you have. And it doesn't matter. 'cause I love you. And you know, the cool part is, this is the coolest part. This is the best part about it all.
This is the part that makes me just, I'll start crying if I talk about it too much when I see my kids do it to each other. When I see Jackson go up to Eli, hug him and say, bro, it's just wrestling. Don't worry. I love you.
It's absolutely amazing.
Riley: That's,
Joe Spinell: Yeah. Because one day I'll be gone. I'll be gone. So they gotta be there for each other.
And so that, that just,
Riley: down carries on.
Joe Spinell: yeah. And, uh, yeah, it happened, it just happened the other day. Eli's crying in the living room. He's crying. He's like, I've worked so hard, but I haven't worked hard enough. He's in tears. And [01:01:00] he's a teenager, so he is got those hormones gone, right?
So Jackson comes over and he says, man, I used to leave Jiujitsu practice crying. 'cause I just felt like I wasn't getting better. I wasn't getting better. And then dad would take me to these tournaments and I'd lose round one. And I thought, God, we traveled all this way and I'm such a failure and this is not the case.
This is a building process. So I love you. We'll get through this. You know? And so you see that and it's like, oh, damn, I don't gotta do anything anymore. These kids are on cruise control for a little bit.
Riley: So beautiful, man. I can see
Joe Spinell: Yeah, it's,
Riley: up
Joe Spinell: yeah. Yeah. It is a, it's a fun ride, man. It is a fun ride seeing these young men grow, these boys grow into young men. And have those, those skills that you, because that's the biggest thing we want to give for our kids, right. You know, some of us gained it, gained it through being maybe in a rougher, um, area that we grew up in, or a rougher environment or a [01:02:00] rougher family.
And then we have this goal as parents to never let our kids live out the same type of lifestyle. They'll never go to bed hungry, you know, we'll send 'em to the best schools. And in the process, the more we help, the more we hurt. And so how do they ever learn grit? How do they ever learn to, like, not physically, but metaphorically punch somebody in the face when they need to get somewhere.
You know, how do they learn to just stand up for themselves? Because everybody's so nice and bullying's not allowed and you can't make fun of anybody. And I'm not saying that's right or wrong, but it's an environment that we've strived so hard. What is that Joe Rogan always says like, hard time. Like hard times make hard men and hard men make easy times.
And this is kind of,
Riley: times. Mixed, soft, man.
Joe Spinell: yeah. Yeah. So it's like, well, how do we, man, how do I give them these things and make them feel secure? Well, I really hope when they do these sports that they wanna compete, because that's the only way I [01:03:00] think I, I, I, that's the only way I know how to do that, you know, without dropping 'em off in the middle of the city.
And saying, good luck, boy, you're gonna live out here for a week, homeless. You know,
it's like, how do you teach them to be hard? You know? I don't have a farm where their chores are to, to farm, you know, we don't hunt for our food. We don't do those things that make boys in other parts of the nation, hard young men.
And, uh, so when you see that starting to happen with your kids, it's just like, oh wow, okay. Because you're not sure as a parent, you know, I lost the instruction book a long time ago, and so I always say, like I say to my residents, you know, 50% of the stuff I'm making up along the way because I'm, I don't have all the answers and I think I've screwed up a lot.
But when you see something that actually does work, you feel like, oh, okay, good man. These boys are tight. They love each other. They're gonna be able to get through anything in the future, uh, when mom and dad aren't around anymore. So we're good. And hopefully they'll [01:04:00] pass it on.
Riley: Raise good adults, man. Gosh, Joe, talk about this [01:05:00] man. You're, um, you're a dad. You're out there coaching these boys, but something happened here recently, Eli, there's video of it I've seen where he blows his knee and it
Joe Spinell: yeah. Yeah.
Riley: the actual injury was,
Joe Spinell: it
was his p
Riley: and then
Joe Spinell: yeah.
Yeah, it was a bad one. It was his PCL, um, which is a really hard. Um, area of you need to hurt. Um, but yeah, he, and that was really tough. That was tough. 'cause he was a freshman. He had a really good, I mean, you know, he had some losses 'cause he was two 15. He's gonna be facing kids that are juniors and seniors a lot.
But man, he had some amazing wins and he was starting to feel good, starting to feel good about himself. We're here. The state qualifier, he's going against a kid he knows he can beat and blows his knee out. And he was, you know, it was pretty tough. It was really [01:06:00] tough for him and I felt bad for him. But I also know that this is a good thing.
We can make a good thing out of this. Um, because it, again, it's that adversity, right? It's, it's that adversity that he's gotta go through. And up until this point, I don't think I could be wrong about this. He was training hard. But when he came back from the knee injury and realized what it was like to have it injured and all the things it took to get him better.
And all the scans. And all the evaluations, he has been a different athlete since then. You know, it was a struggle to make sure that every day you're taking creatine. You know, we we're lucky enough, we know the owner of Anabolic Army and, um, which is a shameless plug. I should tell you about them. They're fantastic.
But he, um, he does all, you know. Uh, he creatine the BCAs, he's taking those daily from them, right? Um, salt [01:07:00] supplements, he's mixing salt two to three times a day, along with he'll, he'll put some other supplements in there, right? Or maybe non-flavored creatine in there. He's doing everything right to come back and he's a different animal now.
But I truly believe it's because of two things, because of the injury that occurred and what he had to do to rehab. And then he went through a real bad stomach issue where he lost, he went from 215 pounds down to 175 pounds. Huge weight loss for him, you know? And his style of wrestling is a heavyweight style.
So now he's down at the lower weight, I mean, three months of being able to eat very, very little without throwing up, having these little tiny meals and just walking away. And, um, I think that tightened up his diet, uh, his supplements. He knew he started to have, have to start taking them. He knew he had to be on point.
And right now he is the biggest 1 75 pounder you've ever seen in your life. He's completely chiseled. He has a different mindset through going through all of this. [01:08:00] It was a struggle that has, I think, hardened him beyond anything that we could have done without those two injuries, without the knee and without the, the stomach bug.
So it's been a blessing in disguise. The question is, tomorrow when he wrestles in his preseason tournament, how, how is he gonna wrestle as a 1 75 5 pound. Because he went to preseason nationals, but that's preseason nationals. I mean, that, that's a, that's a rough tournament. He won his first match and then he made it to day two and lost in day two.
But that's, that's the best kids in the nation, you know? Excuse me about, so it'll be interesting tomorrow how he moves and how he acts as a, as a one 70 fiver in local Trip Tennessee. You know,
Riley: Yeah, man, you, you're talking about, you know, the struggle he goes through from healing from the, the stomach thing, and those, those things can be demoralizing because you fight something like that for long enough and you start to feel like, [01:09:00] maybe I'm never gonna get past this. Maybe this is just what normal looks like from here. And yet you
Joe Spinell: his words. Exactly.
Those were his words. Exactly. He's like, am I ever gonna get better? Is this just how my life is? And while he's losing weight,
constantly unable to eat, he would go out to lunch with us and he would get Ile and diaphoretic. His hands would be so sopping white. 'cause he was so nervous to eat in a public spot and throw up.
And he's like, is this the rest of my life? Like this? Ah, it's frustrating. It's really frustrating.
Riley: Yeah. How's he doing now?
Joe Spinell: He's getting better, um, again, with the supplements. Um, with, right now he can't eat anything greasy. He has not eaten fast food and. Six months, I eight months since he got sick. I mean, he just won't touch it. It's all grilled chicken steak. Right? I mean, he has the cleanest diet. [01:10:00] It's absolutely amazing. The only thing he even eats that's bad is pizza.
And he won't even eat Domino's. It has to be like a, a, he either has to make it or it has to be a legit pizza. And even then he doesn't eat that much of it. So he's, he's doing better, um, in regards to that. At least he's eating chicken now. He wasn't eating chicken at all. Um, and uh, it's been a struggle. I actually got a therapist at one point
'cause we didn't know how much this was psychiatric.
Like we knew the beginning stages. Uh, was, um, it was a legitimate illness, but we didn't, how much of know, how much of this was almost like PTSD from being sick prior? How much of this is real and how much does this carry over? And, um, especially when you have thousands and thousands dollars worth of tests, which you'll do for your kid, if you have the, if you have the, the ability to do it, you're gonna do it to try to figure out what's going on and how can I help this kid out the, the best?
Um, but yeah, I mean, he's so much better now and you should see him. He is, I know we haven't done a [01:11:00] lot of, uh, videos lately, um, but he is just, Tim, Tim is actually a problem. I don't do a lot of videos. He said, if it's not natural, don't do it. Don't, don't try to, don't try to make something that isn't natural.
So we always just go for that natural thing that happens when we have the, just happen to have our, our cameras out and our phones out. But it would've been a beautiful story to see his progression. Um, on video to give, because this other kids suffer from this. You know, kids, it's not uncommon for children to have abdominal pain that no one can figure out whether it's constipation.
Um, there's a round ligament syndrome that, it was funny with the head coach saw me last night, he's like, Hey, he's this what Eli has and he's so awesome, man. Our head coach at Summit is just absolutely amazing. Pete Miller. And I said, nah, we already checked him for that. He's like, oh, I heard this. One of the girls in my class has this.
She just came back from like Nicaragua or something and was at Children's Hospital with this. And it sounded just like Eli. I say now, oh man, I thought about that. That was one of the things that was on my differential. But unfortunately, he had something called [01:12:00] Postviral gastroparesis that his gut just slowed down after having a really bad viral illness.
And so, um, yeah, I mean it's, it's, it's unfortunate that kids suffer from this. He's not the only one. Um, and it's, uh, mentally it's, it's exhausting, you know, especially at that age, you know what I mean? It's one thing to get something when you're eight years old, you don't even remember it. Right. And, you know, there's so many other things, but when you're a teenager with all these different hormones, emotions going on, expectations and it's rough, man.
I do not wanna relive that for nothing. That's a, that's a rough time in life.
Riley: Man, I, not to tell you off air, 'cause I've had a bit of a bout with the sim, not, not that exact thing, but a similar thing this year, but
Joe Spinell: No,
Riley: discussion right
Joe Spinell: yeah.
Riley: We'll talk about it later,
but yeah, I, I'm really identifying with him a lot in that like, it's kinda where the question came from.
Joe Spinell: Yeah.
Riley: um, let's, let's switch gears.
I wanna go to a little bit more of a fun, fun question for
Joe Spinell: Yeah.[01:13:00]
Riley: you're, uh, you said you're 51 years old,
Joe Spinell: Oh God. Yeah.
Riley: You, you got these young savages you're raising up. What's it like, man, around your house, you got these three young boys who are growing into young men, as you mentioned before, and I see your videos and it seems like you guys are. Screwing around in the house, roughhousing all the time.
And I, I bring it up because in my house with my two sons who also trained juujitsu with me, the phrase of the, of every day is from my wife. Not in the kitchen. Not in the kitchen. Get outta the kitchen. know? And
Joe Spinell: I think Amy's given up on that. Yeah.
I think she's given up on that.
Riley: man?
Joe Spinell: Man, it is so much fun. These kids are, I'm gonna be so sad when they, when they find, luckily Jackson lives at home while he goes to college, but when they all decide to go somewhere, I'm gonna be a sad individual. 'cause it, it's, it's, it's so much fun, man.
Whether it's. Whether it's watching video on, on, you know, watching wrestling [01:14:00] matches, juujitsu breakdowns or just watching the stuff that, you know, ridiculous stuff that they're watching and the interactions between them. Um, having them always like, Hey, I wanna try something on you. You know what, you know, or how do I do this?
Or, you know, like, Hey dad, at practice today, like, I know Eli was telling me about this thing he was doing last night. And, uh, it's a dream man. It's a dream come true. You know, I mean, I've always wanted three boys. Got that. Um, I knew they had to train, but I honestly didn't know that the byproduct of just simply training and doing this would be this type of passion while we're at home.
Um, and it's great 'cause little Joey still thinks he's gonna kick Eli's ass one day, and that in of itself. 'cause Joey's the Cockiest little, he's not like the other two. He doesn't get nervous before he competes. He's ready to rock and roll all the time. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I've never seen him nervous before.
He competes. He's ready to rock and roll. He has a [01:15:00] different type of confidence and, uh, he knows when he is gonna lose match. He's like, I'm gonna lose against this kid. I'm gonna beat his ass. I'm like, oh, really? Okay. All right. Let's see that happen. You know, um, just, but he just, you don't like playing cards with him either?
'cause he talks all kinds of shit. He doesn't shut up. So he's, it's different. So having him around is nice because he will instigate a lot of that. A lot of it. So it's, it, it's fun man. And it's fun and it's great now because I'll come home and they might be just in the gym lifting, or they might be rolling, or I might come home and Jackson will be doing a private in the, in the, in the, uh, in the garage in our gym.
And it's just, uh, for me it's a dream come true. It is just so amazing to have these kids, you know? And the funny thing is, I, I, uh, funny thing is I was sitting around one day, I was thinking, you know, they played chess, they wrestled the juujitsu thing. They all wanna be doctors. I'm like, oh man, am I kinda screwing up here? Like, what is it that they [01:16:00] like that I need to get involved in? And um, just kind of like readdressing it. Like I know, let's see here.
Well, they like YouTube. I'm sit down and watch YouTube with them, but it kind of always gravitates to jujitsu. Um, they like video games. All right. So I got a steam deck, but it's not really compatible with the games they play. And I'm not, my wife will kill me if I'm on the computer, computer playing games, but they like Pokemon, especially my youngest.
'cause he'll go and wheel and deal at these events and like, he'll buy one for 40 and sell it for 60 and then get the card that he actually wants. So he's, he's a hustler.
He's a legitimate hustler. Like I've seen him like, nah, we can't do that. And like, just walk away. Thank you for your time. Walk away. And I'm like, okay, well why don't I, I'll start doing this.
And so now I'm more into that damn Pokemon card collecting than all these guys are. So that's another used to see what I have upstairs. It's [01:17:00] nuts. It's like a whole nother world. And it's this, but, but I wanted to do it with them because. They like to collect and this is worth this and this is worth that and go to these shows.
And so it's something non juujitsu, it's non wrestling. It's completely separate that I wanted to do with them because it was the interest of theirs. So let me do something that, and now I'm more into it than they are. So it's, it's, it's even fun on that level. It's just, it's just, it's a great house, man.
It's, it's great. I'm, I'm, I'm so blessed,
Riley: I, I love it. My, uh, my oldest son, I've been a fly fisherman for the last 30 years. Right. And he decides bass fishing's what he wants to do. I haven't owned a spinning rod for 30 years. Right. And
Joe Spinell: right?
Riley: but guess who now owns a bass boat and a
Joe Spinell: I love it.
Riley: of rods to fish for bass and it's ridiculous,
Joe Spinell: Yeah.
Riley: but yeah,
we have a blast together doing
Joe Spinell: But I, it, it now is like a question that I think about when it comes to [01:18:00] parenting is, okay, your kids do this and this and this. What is it something your kid does that you do? Because that's kind of a, to me, that's a really good relationship. You wouldn't look at any other relationship, right? It would be a one way relationship.
If it was everything that you want them to do. They do everything of their interest. Is your interest. What do they have that now you've invested your time into it
because you have a lot. You, you hear that a lot about relationships and it's like, well, if somebody likes something, how do you know you don't even, like, once you try it, see.
See what it's like and show that investment. 'cause that investment as a, as a kid, my dad never did that with me. I would've loved it if he would've done that with me. Take something I like and show some, I don't like this, but I'm gonna learn about it. Maybe I will. You know? So I think that's, that's it.
That's a great thing that makes that connection tighter, which ultimately makes competing and traveling and cutting weight and doing all those nasty things that we [01:19:00] have to do in this sport. So much more doable. 'cause now the person that's next to you isn't just Dad. They're like really invested in your life.
You know, that it's not just he's obligated 'cause he is my father, but he's actually somebody that, you know, watches Mr. Beast with me. Even though I hate that thing. But anyway, I'll sit down and watch it with him and we'll have a good time watching it.
You know? 'cause that's what we, that's what we do for our wives, right?
I just sat there and watched a Golden Bachelor last night. I have very limited time and I sat and watched a Golden Bachelor 'cause my wife wanted to watch it. But that's your investment. That's the time. Those are the things that we do. So I think that's just another aspect of being a that parent, that parent coaching thing that shows them, I'm not just gonna be with you when you're doing the things that I enjoy.
I'm gonna be with you throughout the whole, this whole journey.
Riley: Wonderful parent wisdom man. Joe, tell me this, what was it like for you
Joe Spinell: I.
Riley: the first
time, uh, one of your sons [01:20:00] kicked your butt on the mats?
Joe Spinell: Oh, I was so happy. I was, I was so happy. I still remember, I, I remember when Jackson legitimately got a choking on me and legitimately made me tap. It wasn't one of those where I was giving it to him wasn't those, I was letting him get positioned. I remember where we were on the mat was in the garage and I laughed and I was so goddamn happy.
I'm like, my boy is getting good. He's getting real good. He knows all my tricks. Now
this is gonna suck. This is gonna suck. But I love it, man. I fucking love this. And, uh, he's whooping my ass more constantly and more regularly and yeah, he's got my card, he's got my number, you know what I mean? And um, Eli, he has legitimately tapped me.
He actually has with his damn ankle locks like, he'll, [01:21:00] he'll start off like an ankle lock. I I can get you, I can get you in this ankle lock. Um, and he's, he's good from certain positions. Uh, he'll whoop my ass wrestling now. And I remember when that transition happened, we were drilling positions and I'm like, holy crap.
I actually cannot hold him down right now. Like, I legitimately cannot hold him down right now. And I remember when that happened. I, so Joey got some time. Joey has some time. I got some time to beat his ass, but
Riley: still 12,
Joe Spinell: he's still 12 years old.
Riley: Yeah.
Joe Spinell: But that's what happens. I,
Riley: still whoop a 12-year-old,
Joe Spinell: that's still whoop a 12 year old's butt.
Um, and I was threatened, threaten Eli that I can knock 'em out. I think, I don't know how much power I can generate anymore, um, as you get older, but I think that's like, kind of goes back to like what you were talking about as far as at some point, you know, you're training partners and what, how do you train Juujitsu as you're getting older?
Because my son at 21, the way he [01:22:00] moves, I, I can't keep up with that.
Riley: yeah.
Joe Spinell: wear me just, and especially in Nogi and Nogi, I'm a dead man if I don't get a leg entanglement and he knows the leg entanglement game too good. So I'm screwed there also. So it's just like, you know, how do you, how do you compete with these folks?
How do you train with these guys and uh, with all the influences on, on Instagram about the debate on what is real jiujitsu and what isn't, who should be tapping to who? And if you're a real black belt, I think these guys fail to see that, like any beautiful piece of art, it means something different to everyone.
Riley: Yeah.
Joe Spinell: you look at a beautiful piece of artwork and it means something to you. It resonates to you. You listen to a, you listen to a song, a beautiful piece of music. Probably means 10 different things to 10 different people. And even movies, you know, what did that movie mean to you? You know, stand by Me.
Stand by me probably means something so different to one person than it does to another person. And that's because it's a beautiful piece of art. [01:23:00] And jujitsu's the exact same thing. You know? I think as we get older, um, it's not the same thing. It didn't, it means something different to me now. It's not about competition, it's not about grinding.
Even though I love that romantic view of like just butting heads and ripping on geese and, and just big throws. But that's not what it means to me now. It means to me is me with my best friends for the afternoon class, getting a good workout in, getting maybe a tap you weren't expecting. Having a good game with them and then going home and talking shit to each other on, in, on, on the, on the text.
You know, it's, it's just different. It's different what jiujitsu means to you and that's okay.
And that means your training changes. I don't train, like I'm very selective about my training partners now. It's not because I'm not afraid of anybody. Um, I mean, I'm fearful of everybody in, in one respect, but on the mat, in a controlled environment, I [01:24:00] don't really, you think you're the first white belt to mark up my arms with claw marks or the first white belt to gimme a black eye.
Like I don't that I don't care. Yeah. Yeah, no I'm not. I'm gonna train with guys, especially at my age now that I know I'm gonna be safe. I know I can go to work tonight and I know I'm going to get better 'cause we're working on things I need to work on. We're not gonna sit in a controlled position for the entire round 'cause neither one of us wants to lose position 'cause we're afraid of losing the round.
Well, you just wasted five minutes of my life. I don't need that now. Maybe I needed that when I was 20, but I don't need that now.
So it just, it's different. And so I think that training really has to be different. If you, if you want a, if you want a sustainable, if journey in Juujitsu, I mean, you can go balls to the wall and you're gonna burn out in a couple years and you're gonna have true, legitimate injuries, you know, where you're not going to be able to really function the way you want to.
Right now [01:25:00] I just hurt. I don't necessarily have injuries, but I hurt, my back hurts, my knee hurts, you know?
That's okay.
Riley: you talk about. Balls to the wall with, with your training. And that's, it's not just jujitsu, man. I had a, I had a friend who was a runner for a while.
Then he took like a decade off, right? And he's having his, he's right around his 50th birthday. I was in the middle of triathlon training. I was running a lot.
I was cycling, I was swimming, you know, and I was in really good shape. And he's, he decides he wants to start running again. But his theory at 50 years old was, gonna run fast for short distances and work my way up to long distances, but I'm gonna go fast. And I'm like, bro, this is a bad idea. And we went out on a run and we were about three quarters of a mile in, and he's running, you know, sub sub eight minute miles in the, in the low seven minute mile pace. And yeah, we weren't even a full mile in. And he pulled a hammy so bad that it bruised from
Joe Spinell: Yeah,
Riley: to his
Joe Spinell: he, he, ruptured it. Yeah. [01:26:00] Yeah.
Riley: Yeah,
It was a, and it, it popped instantly and he about couldn't walk back. It was a, it was a big deal. And I was like, man, I, I tried to tell you
Joe Spinell: yeah,
Riley: you can't just start out crazy at 50 years
Joe Spinell: yeah. I know that's, so when, so I, my, my time back will probably be in two weeks is the timeline right now to get back like on regular training sessions and when I do that, at least that's the timeline right now it'll be a round on and a round off 'cause I'm gonna fully recover before my next round.
People have the false impression that you've gotta do these rounds and rounds and rounds and rounds and rounds and that. We don't compete that way. We don't compete that way. Um, we compete for five minutes and then we have time off. Pa Pavel, are you familiar with [01:27:00] him? The, um, are Russian kettlebell guy.
He's a trainer. Pa Paval is absolutely amazing and one of his best interviews I wanna say was with Huberman, or it may have been with Rogan, but he breaks it down on something we've been doing for years. And the idea is once you're fatigued, you're fatigued. But so many people try to train in the fatigue zone thinking they're going to increase their FI O2, that they're going to increase their ability to handle that fatigue.
When physiologic, there's nothing further than the truth. What we want to do is train so that fatigue zone is further away. And you don't do that by training in the fatigue zone. We go harder for shorter recover, go hard again. It's almost like the reverse tabatas. We find people that go for 20 seconds really hard and they get the 10 seconds off and you watch their calorie count, their heart rate and the recovery, reverse it and look [01:28:00] at what better of a workout they had.
They go harder for the 10 seconds than they would've for the 20. They take the 20 off. Now they're getting the most out of the 10. So we're getting most out of our shorter segments, we're actually increasing our ability to get fatigued 'cause we're not working in a fatigued zone. The idea of working in a fatigue zone and getting more conditioning is, is false.
There's no proof. There's not one piece of proof behind it. It's traditional training. And so getting back on the mat, one of the best things you can do is go around and take one or two off before you roll again when you're first getting back in. But our mindset is every round 10 round Tuesday, and I think there's a place for that.
There is a place for a 10 round Tuesday. That's why I love Tim only does it once a week, but the majority of our training should be until you're ready, that you can recover. So you can get the most out of your rounds. You have to take that time off. And that's what guys don't do. So they come back after a three month injury [01:29:00] and they're like, I'm going, I'm going every round.
I'm going. I'm like, bro, sit up against the wall. Take some time. No coach, I'm going, I'm going, you are not gonna be back next week. I know where this is headed. We need to ease you into it. You're not a Navy seal, you're not, you know, an army ranger mentality. You're the average dude and that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that.
Let me manage how I know your brain is going to work. Do a round, take one or two off, do a round. Let's get you back. Let's get you injury free and let's build up the callous in your mind. 'cause we're not walking around with that type of mentality.
So I think that's the coming back from an injury that's, that is so incredibly important to have that type of mindset.
But so many people, it's like, well if you're not training every round, you're taking a round off. You suck. It's like, no, I'm 50 years old right now. I've gotten, I've done more and forgotten than you've accomplished at this point. Trust, when I say training smart is so much better at this age.
[01:30:00] Training for competition at 20 years old.
Completely different animal.
Riley: Yeah. You know, it's funny 'cause just last night I had a conversation with two, two of the guys down at our school, and they're both, they're new to
Joe Spinell: Mm-hmm.
Riley: but they're both my age, they're in their later forties. uh, they're both strong athletic guys I'll watch 'em and they'll, they'll grapple so hard for one round that they have to sit out a round or two.
Joe Spinell: Yeah.
Riley: and and so my advice was actually, um, in the same with the same idea, but I took 'em both out on the mat individual and I said, I want you to come roll around with me
Joe Spinell: Right,
Riley: want you to match my pace and I'm gonna grapple at a rate that we could do this for an hour
Joe Spinell: right.
Riley: And so we're not getting hurt.
And, and it was an eye-opener to them because I'm moving in slow motion. Every time I grab something, my hand's coming up slow. It's like a,
Joe Spinell: Yeah.
Riley: I'm, I'm, accepting a sweep. I'll let 'em take me down and I'll slow. You know, I'm, I'm moving at a rate that's much slower than they were going and they're going, oh, we can, [01:31:00] we can get more mat time if we do it at this pace,
Joe Spinell: You're gonna,
Riley: coming out here and trying to kill each
Joe Spinell: you're gonna, you're gonna get more volume of techniques, you're going to get better engagement,
um, and you're, you're avoiding the explosive kinetic moves which create injury.
And if you don't like that style, that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion. [01:32:00] But I can tell you from my own, uh, my own opinion, it's the best way to continue to do this sport for the rest of your life because a really bad injury can put you out for a significant amount of time.
And just like in my case, one injury leads to another injury.
I'm not even doing anything. I can't walk on my left foot right now, so I can't walk on my left foot, but it's
Riley: that. So tell tell people
Joe Spinell: Oh, oh yeah. I think we were talking about something about sedentary lifestyle. So, so, um, I went to Worlds, um, I think I'll run through it because I can't give this story without telling everyone kind of what the goal of Worlds was.
Well, most people are like, I'm gonna make the podium, I'm gonna get gold. I wanted to compete against one guy and, um, GAO, he's a legend, uh, Ricardo Gado and multiple time world champion. I just wanna be on the mat with this guy. You know, it's like, kinda like playing basketball with Michael Jordan. I know he is gonna whoop my ass, but maybe if I could just get to my lasso guard, I'd be [01:33:00] like, damn, that was a win for me.
You know? And I got two guys to go through and I've seen these guys. I can beat these guys. I know I can beat these guys. And I go out best man, the best warmup I have had in a long time. That was a great warmup. Great warmup, stretched out, felt great. Had my team there. 'cause we're all at worlds. 'cause you make a big event out of it, right?
Everybody going there,
Riley: Yeah.
Joe Spinell: it's like a whole bunch of people playing Dungeons and Dragons, you know, like we're athletes for like a weekend and, um, get out there. And I, and the thing that, the thing that I thought about the most was, this guy moves a lot. This guy, because I've watched him this video, he wasn't moving at all.
I jump in, I get the grips I want, I got him. So, well, it was kind of awkward and 'cause we were training because we knew he took a high grip. And for me, get a lasso on this side. We're like, how are we gonna deal with that high collar grip that lasso on that side? So we had a game plan for it and everything and, but I get the grips.
He doesn't get his high grip. I go to pull guard and as soon as I put my foot on his hip, pop my, [01:34:00] my groin completely ruptures. And I didn't know it ruptured at the time. I knew something was wrong. He gets in half guard, he feels I'm not moving. He's super, super nice guy, man. This guy was like, just such a gentleman.
He's, he stomp. And he's like, are you okay? Are you like legitimate? Are you okay? And I think he asked if it was my knee or not. And I'm like, no, that was my groin. And uh, he tried to get some, some grips and when I knew he was done trying to get his grips on my collar, I said, Hey man, I'm gonna call an injury timeout real quick.
He said, yeah, sure. I get up, I'm like, can I stand? Can I walk? And it kind of spasmed on me when I got up. And then I walk, I'm like, oh, I can walk. I'm cool. And I go back down and as soon as I went back down, I'm like, Ugh,
just my groin. So I come up with a game plan, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna let him kind of slip to my back.
And I was spin in his guard and, and as most game plans, they didn't go the way I wanted it to. And so, um, really disappointed. I think it was the first time I cried since I was in high school. I was so disappointed. I [01:35:00] was so crushed. I was so embarrassed. And it was all a good thing though. 'cause my, my team was able to talk to me and kind of like how I talked to them in those situations,
they were there
Riley: Yeah,
Joe Spinell: And that was really heartwarming, man. It was really heartwarming. And uh, but you know, it's always tough losing, you know,
and especially, especially when you're 100% sure you're gonna win this match. Like, I hadn't been that confident in a long time. And so I can't really do a whole lot because of the groin.
I mean, it's completely ruptured. I didn't know that at the time. I was going to the restroom like two days later and I looked down and I saw the bruising all the way in the back of my leg. I'm like, I come out of the restroom, I come out of the bathroom, I'm like, I am actually injured. It was not my weak mindset.
My leg is really messed up, which my wife found found very psychotic. I think in any case, um, I haven't been able to do a lot 'cause of that groin. And what happens, my back is the worst it's ever been. And outta nowhere. I get an left Achilles tendonitis, I mean, is so bad. It's [01:36:00] so hard to even put weight on it.
The only thing that's been helping is doing cold plunges. I've actually debated about going on prednisone right now to help decrease the inflammation.
Riley: Just take the
edge off for a bit. yeah.
Joe Spinell: yeah. Um, my wife has me on like the Wolverine stack injectable stuff. 'cause that's what she does for a, a living. She's a physician assistant in, in like wellness medicine.
So they do testosterone replacement, they do all the longevity type stuff. So we just started that. But those didn't come out of Juujitsu. They really came out of inactivity. The hip did. I can get over that. But the back and the heel is the worst that I've felt in so long. And it's because of my inactivity, you know?
'cause for me, lifting weights is not enough. You know, you, I need some type of like movement and doing things. And since this has happened, this is the worst that I've felt in a long time. But it's the inactivity and people live in the state. I don't know how they live in the state. I don't know how they live.
'cause your inflammation goes up, your [01:37:00] weight goes up, your mobility goes down, your depression goes up. I mean, there's so many things that. Just come out of inactivity. And so if I'm gonna be injured all the time from Jiujitsu, I'm fine. I'm, or hurt, I should say. If I'm hurt all the time from Jiujitsu, great.
Fantastic. I don't care. This groin is a bit of an exception. Kind of sucks, but um, at least with the in, if I was overweight with this injury, I'd really be up shit's creek.
But at least I'm in decent shape, you know, I have a decent diet, take decent supplements, and I'm doing okay right now and I'm ready to return.
You know, unlike, it would be on the other side if I was completely inactive before the actual injury.
Riley: Yeah. Joe, can we switch gears here a little
Joe Spinell: Yeah,
Riley: we're getting pretty deep into this podcast. Um, I could honestly just keep going, but I know you have a time schedule and, and, uh, I guess a few more things I wanna ask you. They're a little bit on the lighter side of things,
Joe Spinell: yeah, sure. [01:38:00]
Riley: but
Joe Spinell: I,
Riley: and this is called the Goer and Your SALT podcast. when you hear the term go in your salt, I'd like to know what that means to you.
Joe Spinell: oh, what it means to me, the first thing that comes in mind is a Roman soldier, like in the Legion, doing what he has to do for his country to get his bag of salt. And that's what I think of it. I think of it as payment. Payment, not for sitting around, but payment for doing something that no one else will 'cause to be a Roman Legionnaire.
Not everybody does that. And so that, that's why you're, you just, and you yourself, the slogan, the shirts, the rash guard. That's what that means to me and that's what it makes me feel. I, it's nice, we all need to feel special, but I need to feel special to myself. So that's that romantic picture I put in my mind when it's go Earn your salt.
Salt. You know, I'm doing something that not many people were will to get a benefit that no one else gets. [01:39:00] So that's what it means me.
Riley: Man, that was pretty well said. That that's gonna make a clip. I just want you to know
Joe Spinell: Okay.
Riley: make a clip. Uh, what advice would you help or, uh, give to listeners of the podcast to, uh, go earn their salt?
Joe Spinell: Oh, find one activity that you've never done before and take it on one activity that you're afraid to do that you're fearful of. Whether that's rock climbing, maybe that's pickleball. I don't know. Maybe you're afraid to go out there and play something everybody knows how to play. I would hope it's juujitsu, but do one, one activity that you find in one way or another difficult to engage in.
You know, whether that is the stigma of it, whether that is the fear walking through the door. Uh, maybe you think it's a commitment that'll take time away from other hobbies. Do something you haven't, do some physical activity you've never done before and see how you [01:40:00] feel after three, four months of that activity.
Give it a, give it a time. Like say, I am committed to this for a quarter. Okay. Or maybe four months, and then I'll reassess at that point. But I'm gonna do this thing I've never done before. I'm gonna play co-ed volleyball for three months. I always wanted to loved it in high school, but been too afraid to go back to it.
Um, but again, my thing would be juujitsu is what I'm biased for. So why not Jiujitsu?
But, um, yeah, it, it, it would be, it, it, it, it will, I've heard more people take this advice and thank me for it than any other thing. And they say, oh, I thought it was ridiculous you said that, but I ended up doing X, Y, and Z started rock climbing and now I can't stop.
And now I'm not, I'm at the gym three days a week and that's awesome, man. Cool. That's awesome.
I wish it was juujitsu, but I still like it.
Riley: rock climbing school too.
Joe Spinell: Climbing is damn cool,[01:41:00]
but intimidating for people to do,
Riley: we, we, we complain about a pulled groin injury, but the, when those guys get hurt, they really get hurt. Right?
Joe Spinell: man. But such a great activity, man. Such a great activity to reflect and work on, you know, your, your inner demons. I mean, if you haven't rock climbed before, it's. It's one challenging sport. It really is. But it could be archery, it could be shooting, it could be anything. Just something you've never done before.
Let's just for once, do something that makes you uncomfortable, but commit to it for a certain amount of time. And there's so many doors that will open up in your life. So many different ways you'll see things, but it's hard, man. People don't wanna be outside their comfort zone, and I understand that, right?
I understand it. But you really, really need to, you need to find that and just go beyond,
Riley: Love it. I love it. Outside of the grappling world, wrestling, jujitsu, that sort of thing, what's your favorite pastime?
Joe Spinell: I hate to say it, but it's Pokemon, but it's, it's a damn [01:42:00] car collecting. No, honestly, it's um, my favorite pastime, which I can't wait till things kind of slow down, is, um, just spending time with my wife doing just the husband wife thing. Whether it's out in the backyard doing stuff or whether it's just going out on date night or whether it's traveling.
We just got back from Spain a few months ago. That was just, I just, she's my best friend and it is so much fun to do the things that we do together. And, uh, you know, it's difficult 'cause my life is ta there's so much time that I spend between middle school coaching, high school coaching, juujitsu training myself, and then work.
She sometimes feels very, very, um, not a priority. That's a dangerous path to go down. And uh, the honest truth of it is, it's like spending time with her is, that's my guilty pleasure. That's the chocolate, that's the dessert of the meal. [01:43:00] Uh, but you know, it's hard. It's hard because, you know, relationships are what they are, but there'll be a time that we'll be able to do a lot more traveling together in, in the fun stuff.
Just right now it comes once a quarter.
Riley: I put out a video of my black belt test. Right? I don't know if you saw
Joe Spinell: Yeah,
Riley: In that I talk about my wife and her role in the supporting of me
Joe Spinell: yeah,
Riley: All the nights I wasn't home and that sort
of a thing. And one of the things that I told her. I was like, I cannot wait until this is a thing of the past I can do Jiujitsu just for fun.
And we get to, get to hang out again. 'cause that's, yeah.
Joe Spinell: yeah,
Riley: on,
Joe Spinell: yeah,
Riley: the dessert. That's the best thing.
Joe Spinell: yeah. I know. And you know, it's funny when you have kids and identities change, and the stresses and the roles that we change, that we take on, it's [01:44:00] different. And a relationship becomes so dynamic. You can see why the highest divorce rates aren't just in the beginning, but they're also at the end, you know, over 20 years together.
You think those people are together. That's when the divorce rates get the highest.
And we're right now in this situation where almost every couple that we know is getting divorced, and it's just like sobering
because you see the pattern that's going on and you think you're the dessert, but you feel like you're not even invited to the table because of everything that's going on.
And so that's something really important to manage because you know who's watching, those three guys are watching,
Riley: You got it.
Joe Spinell: they're picking up on a lot of signals that aren't being said. And you can be like this, you know what, Eli called me, he called me a di, he called me schizophrenic, but he meant a dichotomy
because he is trying to describe, and I'm like, what? I'm schizophrenic, what you talking about? I was driving him to school. He's like, yeah, you, you like, you kind of like know [01:45:00] about the cell, like biology stuff, but then like, you know how to like punch and kick and like choke. And I'm like, huh, that's not schizophrenic.
It's called it dichotomy. He's like, that's what I mean right there. You know, those big words like that. I'm like, son, that's not a big word. That's a common knowledge word.
And he just tries to be funny, you know? Um, but they, you know, they, they, they, they pick up on stuff. You know what I mean? And so, um, you might be all that and you might think they're in one direction, but you don't know the other things you're teaching them without intent.
And so you gotta have that relationship going good 'cause you want them to be able to, I think most people emulate their parents. It's kind of natural. And so you want them to emulate good relationships and and foster those healthy relationships through what they see. And if they say, like for me growing up, I thought it was normal behavior to hit your wife.
I did not know [01:46:00] until I started almost, I probably was in my teenage years, spending time with other families, realizing I think my dad's fucked up. This isn't right. And we as a couple have to show them through our actions what a loving relationship is. How do you communicate effectively and how do you make your wife a priority when you have all this other stuff going on.
And so that's a challenge in and of itself. I don't think, uh, I think we make fun of it in Jiujitsu, you know, like all the memes about the girlfriend and the wife. Yeah. Yeah. But in reality, you know what's really more important, you know, your relationship or you know your pastime.
It is a lifestyle. It is a lifestyle.
It's a lifestyle. It is. But how do you make it a lifestyle, not an obsession that invades other parts of your life? 'cause is it really worth that?
You know, are you.
Riley: know, I think of a small example of that is the amount of laundry we do as a [01:47:00] juujitsu ride. We come home at night and we got our stinking sweaty ge I come in and it's late. Right? My wife's already in bed and so,
Joe Spinell: Yeah,
Riley: just made the decision here for a while back to just like, not sticking the gee in the laundry at night.
'cause
Joe Spinell: yeah,
Riley: up,
Joe Spinell: yeah.
Riley: It's gonna sit there
Joe Spinell: That's awesome.
Riley: morning.
Joe Spinell: Yeah.
Riley: yeah, we the behind the scenes,
Joe Spinell: Yep, yep, yep.
Riley: Yeah. Uh, Joe, what's your favorite band?
Joe Spinell: Oh man. Can you gimme a genre of music or do I just have to pick a favorite one?
Riley: I just want your favorite. I It can be more than one.
Joe Spinell: Wow. If you say like,
okay, so if you're gonna say like country, I would say one another. So I'm gonna tell you the first one. Overall, if I was just going to have one band, that's my go-to band overall. Golly, there's so many that run through. I love music so much. I mean, music is playing in our [01:48:00] house 24 7, whether it's like in the background or not.
Um,
I'm gonna go hardcore. And so if I'm gonna go hardcore, it's a little cheesy, but I'm gonna say godsmack.
As far as hardcore goes, that's my hardcore go to God disturbed too. I, it's hard for me to pick between Disturbed and Godsmack, but I'm gonna go with Godsmack on this one.
I'm gonna have to do it.
Riley: know Godsmack at all, but disturbed some of their stuff I've heard is it's pretty
Joe Spinell: So good,
Riley: got a good voice,
Joe Spinell: so good, so good. Yeah.
Riley: Yeah.
Joe Spinell: to so many different genres. Like at work I listen to stuff that people would never know I listened to outside of, you know, um, John Williams would be my favorite composer ever. I mean, I can go on and on. We go, you know, col Coltrane for jazz, and I've got my country artists that I like.
And, um, yeah, music is a huge part of my life as [01:49:00] far as just always in the background and always getting me my mind stimulated. Um, because it's, it's almost like fuel on the fire, you know? I know somebody used to say like, listen to music when you run his cheating. I think they got that from David Goggins.
Um, but for me it's a part. Yeah. 'cause it gives you motivation.
I almost think of music as magic. Imagine watching a movie without the music soundtrack in the background. You're not crying.
You're not crying the same way you do with the music in the even workouts. Workouts with music is so awesome. You know, teaching a class with the right music in the background, it's, it's fantastic.
You know, going on a road trip and having the right music playing in the car, it, it's like, it's color to the canvas, you know? So there's very few things I do where I don't have. Music playing in the background because I'm so, you know, I'm painting this, this novel of my life and I want it to be so colorful and so I need, need that music there to keep me going.
Um, so I think it's kind of like, it's, it's fuel to the [01:50:00] fire in so many ways. And, uh, yeah, disturbed and Goss man, they give some good fuel to the fire, so
Yeah. I might have to go with them.
Riley: dude.
Joe Spinell: Yeah.
Riley: Joe, what's something quirky about you that people don't know?
Joe Spinell: Oh, it's definitely the Pokemon thing because I'm not joking about that. I really, really, really, really, I'm like nerdy involved in that. Like, we just want Pokemon hunting today. Like, I'm like, Amy, we gotta be there at 12. The lady puts out the Pokemons at 12 and um, yeah, I've gotten pretty into it. It's crazy.
Like it is the cornerstone of every argument we've had is playing the damn TCG Live game. 'cause I'm ready to start playing in tournaments now. You know, I got my deck made. I've been collecting all, I mean, it's insane. Like, I looked at my collection, just our hardcore cards. I'm like $12,000 of value. Hmm.
How much have I invested? And this is under a year. Like, it's, it's been pretty, yeah. So that's definitely my quirky thing is the whole Pokemon, like everybody at work knows about it because they know like, I gotta get out at a certain [01:51:00] time to get to the store when they first open. 'cause I only do overnights.
So they know when I have to leave like right at six to stand in line at like GameStop for a new release or something, which is, yeah, I'm one of those idiots standing there.
Riley: So it's a trichotomy is what you're saying. 'cause you got Pokemon and you can punch people in the face and you know, all these big words, right?
Joe Spinell: Yeah, I guess so. I guess so. But everybody's got, everybody's got something weird. I guess that's mine.
Riley: I love it. Favorite food?
Joe Spinell: Steak
Riley: Oh yeah.
Joe Spinell: ribeye,
without a doubt.
Riley: Yeah.
Joe Spinell: Yeah. Yeah. Medium rare and nothing fancy on top. You don't have to have any type of fancy topping on it that within everything potato, it's just heaven. It's absolutely heaven.
Riley: That's so my, my jam man.
Joe Spinell: Yeah.
Riley: Um, have you ever been in a fight outside the, the actual mats?
Joe Spinell: Oh yeah. Yeah. I grew up in a pretty tough [01:52:00] neighborhood and um, yeah, I mean, as a young kid that happened pretty often. It happened a lot less as a teenager. As a teenager you kind of have a reputation and people stay away from you. And then after that, I don't call being a bouncer fighting, that's a diff that's more like a scuffle,
but enough altercations as a bouncer for, so a couple years of, that's actually how I met my wife, embarrassingly enough.
But, um, I mean, I think it was the week after I turned 21, I started bouncing because I don't, I don't really drink, but I always want to go out. And that was like the best way to go out and meet people. And not have to drink and get to know people. 'cause I was pathologically shy at that time in my life.
And so I find like through, I knew like through consistency, you get to know people. It's hard to like build a relationship like in one evening. But if you see that person week after week after week after, you get to know a good group of folks. What I didn't know was just like, I [01:53:00] was just repeating like my father's drunkardness, like seeing that all around me still.
And I started saying, damn, I really don't like this environment. I didn't realize it was just kind of me kind of following my father at that point, but falling into it and it was money and it was, you know, but um, yeah, so I, I don't consider those fights, but as a kid, yeah, quite a few up until, probably up until high school.
In high school it two fights in high school, two true fights in high school, which were real quick. They were just take downs and restraining the guy. So, um, yeah, I think so as an adult, uh, stopped a guy from beating his kid one time. Choked him out. Police got involved. Thank god there were witnesses. Um, I'm probably forgetting something else.
Oh, patient that attacked a nurse one time, but again, that's not a fight, that's not like squaring up with somebody toe to toe,
you know, they're all like [01:54:00] interruptions, if that makes sense. So I guess I haven't squared up with somebody since high school, but that's good. Nothing really good comes from it, right?
Riley: No, no, I asked that question, especially to my. My Jiujitsu brothers in this, in these interviews because is that, that, um, perception that because we like to go fight guys for fun, that we wanna do it out on the street, man, it's like, it's just not the case. There's none of 'em.
Joe Spinell: No, nothing good ever comes from it. Nothing good ever comes from an altercation. It ruins the night. You know, you're not, and this is the one thing that people don't realize when you get into a real fight, the vast majority of the time, even if you quote win, which my definition of that is completely changed, but if you come out on top or whatever, you consider that you're still scuffed up.
Like if you're in, if you, if you go toe to toe with another human being, no matter [01:55:00] how skilled you are, your knees are gonna get banged up. You're gonna get scraped. I mean, it's an altercation with a resisting human being. There's gonna, it's not worth. It's just, and then the legal ramifications of all of it is not worth it.
So it just, it, it's, it's some, it's one of those things where, um, I have this quote, I have a whole list of quotes for the residents at work and I, and one of them, I apparently was, the world would be so much, we would have so much more peace in the world if everyone learned how to fight. 'cause we would respect it and we wouldn't, barring alcohol intoxication.
We'll take that. If that was off the board, we probably wouldn't have any nearly any fights. 'cause people would be so much more respectful to one another
Joe Spinell: that you get out what you put in. Plain and simple. Nothing, not nothing earth shattering. It was just you get out what you put in, you [01:56:00] know? And I think it's so, so true and people want to break that rule and while it maybe it can be broken some of the time, it can't be broken all the time. And so why just play by that rule?
The more you put in, the more you're gonna get out. It might be different for some people, but I know if I put enough in, I'm gonna get something out of it, you know? Uh, I think probably the best piece of advice from my father, um, he gave actually for being such a terrible person, he gave out some pretty good advice.
And I think what his piece of advice was, if you complain about everything, no one will listen when it's important. And that has served me so well as a physician. It has served me so well administratively because when I do come with an issue, people listen. Um, because I don't complain about everything and I feel like if [01:57:00] I address it, it's people take it seriously.
So, yeah, I can't just give you one. I have to have to throw my old man in there.
Joe Spinell: Yeah.
Yeah. I think there's still some pain there, you know, with those little jabs about, you know, they're, they're little, little jabs probably for myself and not for anybody else. Maybe there's still some underlying, you know, issues with it. Um, but what am I gonna do? What are you gonna do? You, you gotta, you can't just, I don't know.
You, you got, you can't say somebody, nobody's 100% horrible, right? No one's 100% evil. There's no coach out there that's 100% terrible. You know, there, there's no relationship out there that's 100% toxic. And so, man, what are you gonna do? Be a victim or say, Hey, that relationship with that [01:58:00] girl was absolutely horrific.
But I learned a couple things. Boy, that girl knows how to fun and how be fun and be spontaneous. I need to be more like that. You know? Why not? You know, it's like a wasted, it's a wasted chapter in your book if you don't do. And I don't want to do that. I, I'm too fan. I have too much of a fantasy about life to, to do something like that, that's inconceivable in my mind, you know, to, to do that.
So, um, yeah, you can't, you can't look at any relationship. Like, I, I have a terrible, one of my wrestling coaches was so, so, I mean, he was on another level, terrible. But man, he taught some good stuff. He taught some great things because I thought he was a terrible human being. For some of the things that he did.
Doesn't take away the fact that, man, he was some really good, good things he taught. So you, it's not throwing away the bath water with the baby is that old saying that people say, I don't know. There's a saying that this basically, you can't, you can't [01:59:00] disregard everything because of one thing and, um, yeah.
Yes, yes. Yeah. Absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely.
Oh, that's too go. This is a big one for me. It might sound kind of ridiculous to other people, but this is a big one to me. I wanna go to Santorini, Spain with my wife. Don't ask me why Santorini, Spain, maybe it's the pictures that have got me, but before I die, I'm like, I gotta go there. Gotta go there with her.
You know, there's a lot of places we're gonna go, but that's the one place I need to take her. I need to be there with her and see what that life is like. And I've even seen pictures of it before, but it is the most Pat Pictures place I've ever seen in my entire life. On the [02:00:00] water. The architecture is, uh, in incredible.
And uh, it's almost like a, a fantasy village out of like token or something. And so that's, that is definitely on the bucket list. Um, and that's the one that always comes to mind, like, oh shit, I get cancer. We need to go, we need to go quick. I gotta have a reserve to go there before I die.
Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. Santorini, Italy. I think I said Spain. But Santorini, a buddy of mine, uh, that I work with got married there and I was like, how was it? And he is like, oh yeah, like the lady I got that. The story was he went there and how was it? How was it? How was it? He is like, well, it was with my ex-wife.
I'm like, oh shit, sorry, but how was Santorini? And my brother-in-law's been there and it is just, I can't wait. It'll happen one day.
It was man's. I will say overall, because a favorite book [02:01:00] has to go into more than actually the book itself. How did it come to you? Who advised it? What Memories does it Man's search for many. Uh, man's Search For Meaning. Yeah. By Frankl. It was written by a psych, yeah. Psychiatrist. And again, it, it, it's the overall everything of the book, why it's my favorite.
Um, in, for people that don't know, it was written by a, um, a victim of the hall. Well, he was a concentration camp victim. He was a psychiatrist. And because of his, um, his background, he kind of had a different observation of what was going on in the, in the concentration camp and, um, why did some people survive and why did some people not, and man's search for meaning And, uh, his own painful, painful story that was through it.
Um, it's partially 'cause of the book. It's partially how it came, how I, how it came to being from me. A good friend of mine in medical school advised it, [02:02:00] uh, he was actually wrestled for Case, uh, case Western. Um, and he has since passed away. But such an impactful book. It's, it's, uh, there's a couple books I read once a year.
That's one of them. Every year I reread that book and it means something a little different to me. Every time I read it, I pick up something a little bit different in it. Every time I read it. Last year I listened to it. Or this year I listened to it, um, and it didn't have the same impact for me. Um, so this following year, 2026, I'll, I'll go back with my same copy and read it.
But, uh, yeah, that, that book is pretty damn incredible. And then I'd say the other one that The Alchemist is Pretty, Alchemist is a close second, but yeah, that, uh,
Okay. Yeah. Um, yeah, so that's actually written by a, um, a Brazilian, um, author [02:03:00] who I have, um, when I got my black belt, I have the date, I have my about black belt and a, a, one of his book titles, uh, warriors of the Light, um, in Portuguese on my arm around a combination of a, uh, Jedi and rebel symbol.
'cause my, my professor's known as the Jedi, uh, in his circles. And so anyways, um, yeah, that author made a big impact on me with two books that he had. That one and, and, and Light of the, the Warriors of the Light. And uh, yeah, that's a, a beautiful book. Absolutely beautiful book. You got me, I should know it being such a big fan, but I've heard it.
I hate it when people correct my Portuguese 'cause it's so crappy. So, um, I'll ask Reggie how to actually pronounce it correctly, but, uh,
such, such an amazing book on so many levels. Um, [02:04:00] and again, I, I truly believe a book that when you read it the first time, it might mean something different to you than second, third, and fourth time. And that's what I look for in a great book. Could I read this book again? And there's not a lot that are out there that I say, yeah, I could read it again.
But those are definitely, those two are, um, especially man search, meaning that one is very hard for me to read without thinking of my friend, which is wonderful because such a good guy, you know, I like to have memories of him so that that book just like, it makes me feel like I'm in the room with him when I read it.
So that's, that's good. Good part about it.[02:05:00]
Yeah. So, you know, we started videoing, I think we've actually started videoing on YouTube first. More, more than anything else. And we do like little instructional on YouTube. It's old dog bjj. Um, but the Instagram is just Joe Spinel, which is Joe Spinel at Joe Spinel. Yeah. And, um, we did, we did some videos on techniques and, you know, like everybody does.
And, and then we started doing a little series for parents to help their kids. And then we would kind of [02:06:00] do a little bit of, on Instagram, just kind of, because I started to look at Instagram as kind of like your, your like, um, your photo book. Like nobody has like, photo books around anymore, right. But what we have is these little clips of our lives.
And to me I thought, oh, this is pretty cool. You know, I can kind of scroll back on it and look at all these things. And then one thing set it off, it was Eli eating a bowl of cereal and Joey jumps on his back and goes to choke him. And I tell him to stop and I correct his choke. I think it got 6 million views.
We, right after we did that video, we went, I remember we took a vacation up to San Francisco and Napa and kind of had a family trip. We took the kids back to where, like where we got married in, in, in Tahoe and found the exact same spot in Tahoe. I can't believe my wife found it was freaking amazing during this whole [02:07:00] time, like we're getting tons and tons of people following us.
And so we start just doing videos of the kids horsing around. Sometimes it's a technique, you know, like sometimes it's me teaching class or Jackson teaching class, or it might even just be the wrestling room. And then it's other times where Joey has always, he, he's full of questions, man, I, my kids speak in questions.
They don't speak in statements. It's like, dad, why does this, why does the sky blue? And you know, why did this guy lose this match? And, Hey dad, why, why, why? Why do you have a have this thing in? Why do you have these type of mats in your car? And does anybody ever say anything in this house? It's always questions.
And I was like, well, the questions are actually pretty cool. And they mean they're inquisitive and why don't when we answer them, if we have a camera around, we'll do it. When this all started happening. I was training at ZOS in Nashville and uh, there's a guy there, um, he's actually the drummer for I think boys like girls or girls like boys.
It is a big band. [02:08:00] Um, his name is John. He's the drummer there and he's been around this type of stuff for years. And he said to me something I thought was pretty impactful. He goes, if you try to do what Sean does as far as Sean Williams, you're never gonna be as good of a teacher as Sean. Your videos aren't gonna be as detailed.
They're not gonna have the same thing. And he's 100% right. Sean Williams is an amazing instructor, but he goes, but if you keep doing what you're doing, this is really different. This is like you and the kids. Like this isn't. And I said, you know what? That's really what we like doing. It's fun. And then Tim Freeman was like, he said something about just keep it genuine and don't try to force anything.
And so there's times we'll come out with three, four videos in a week and there's other times we won't come out with a video for a while 'cause it's not genuine and I'm not gonna stage something. So, um, yeah. So it's been so much fun, man. And, and the best part about it, not so much for me, but you always want to be that Superman to your kids in one way or another.
[02:09:00] Like when my son comes to shadow me at work, I, I, I have a certain amount of pride. You know, it's, he's coming and everybody's like, I don't ever ask anyone to ever call me Dr. Spinel. That's not my style. But it's different when they're at work and your son is seeing it. He's like, man, I thought you were just a dude that mom yells at.
But you actually do some cool stuff, you know, and people kind of respect you. I'm like, yeah, what the fuck do you expect? You know, you're old man, you know, so when you're out about like at worlds or you're at a different, oh, A DCC was the big one when we went to A DCC, so many people were coming up saying, oh yeah, follow your Instagram.
And it felt so good to have these dads that are like, Hey, my kid's about ready to start Jiujitsu. Do you think we should do jiujitsu or wrestling? You know, the very common question. Or, um, it's so cool seeing you and your boys. Where's the little one? Um, and then the best was we went to a seminar at Tim's, uh, when Eddie Bravo was there.
And the first time this was awesome, somebody there said, Hey, listen, um, [02:10:00] this is, I, I don't mean to be weird, but I've watched you guys on Instagram, but he wasn't talking to me this time. He was talking to Eli and Jackson and that felt so good that they were kind of recognized. Um, 'cause they're both very shy guys.
Very shy. And the guy asked, Hey, where's your little brother? You know, he was really into it, you know what I mean? And I thought that was so cool that they kind of got recognized a little bit. And, um, because they kind of need that. They're not, they're so, they're pathologically shy kids, you know? So it was kind of neat for them to, to have that and how they responded and they were so gracious.
And so that, that was really cool. Yeah. So the, the, the channel's been so much fun and, um, whoever does see it, just know this stuff is sometimes we'll do a product review like for SALT or like Anabolic Army that I was mentioning earlier. Um, but uh, most of it's not stayed. That type of stuff. We have to, you know, or if I show like what you put in the day of competition, a lunch that we [02:11:00] do for Day of Competition, things like that, that I think people have questions about.
You know, how do I cut weight? What do I pack in my lunch the day I go to a wrestling meet? You know, what should I eat when I'm after practice? You know, those type of things. Those are obviously staged, but the other stuff, what's happening in the house is, or organic. So it's a lot of fun.
Yeah.
Joe Spinell: yeah, absolutely. Anytime, man. It is so much fun to, to talk and, and have fun and have maybe one person, if anything I says helps one person. Dude, that's amazing. That's, I. You, you don't get opportunities like that very much in life. And so when they, when they do come across and you're able to help, whether you find out about it or not, 'cause in my fantasy mind, it's gonna happen, you know?
And uh, that's enough to just, it. We need things in life to give [02:12:00] us purpose and, and make us feel good. If life is too full of just shit and darkness and just bad stuff, that happens all the time. Especially in the emergency department. You think everything is darkness, you know, sometimes, 'cause it's a, you know, confirmation bias, it's around you all the time and all the time you think the real world's like that and it's not.
But there's a lot. And so, man, we, we gotta, gotta have fun. Gotta have fun and talk about fun things and make good relationships and, uh, 'cause if not, there's too much darkness, man, this just sucks. It's not a good thing.
Yeah, man. Absolutely. Dude. Thank you so much. I really do appreciate it.
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